Free will & destiny

[Menotu]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

Within Christianity, which exists?
Some say everyone has free will, but looking back at the biblical stories, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Someone had to fall to temptation and eat the apple; someone had to betray Jesus.
Where those people acting on free will, or were they forced to play their part in the grand plan?
If they had free will, surely God knew what they would do and had to plan accordingly?
Or does his plan supersede all human understanding?
And if that's the case, how are we to understand anything about him?

[JehovahsWitness]

Of course i find the Calvinist interpretation of scripture to be incredibly offensive to the character of God.. It turns God into some kind of mega psychopath..

Yes, I have to agree. God provides prophecy about certain events which he will see come true (either by manipulating affairs or by letting participants make their choices) but he never interferes with individual free will, that would be contrary to his loving nature.

PREDESTINE A GROUP

God has destined groups of people "the rebellious" "the wicked" for destruction, but individuals exercise their free will by stepping into that category. In the same way, He has decided there will be a GROUP of spirit anointed Christians that will rule In heaven. Again no individuals were mentioned by name for inclusion. Individuals exercise their free will and get their names either in the book of life or condemned as a wicked person. In short, the ship is going down, but you buy your own ticket to get on it! Jehovah does did not choose to know whether each individual (including Adam and Eve , or Judas ) will sin. He doesn't need to.

WAS JUDAS DESTINED TO BETRAY JESUS?

• For example God knew Satan would not resist killing Jesus when that one would be born as a vulnerable human, but he never names Judas as being the instrument of that death. Judas himself freely stepped into the role of betrayer. It is obscene to suggest God pushed Judas (or Satan) to kill his son so his prophecy wouldnt fail.

CONCLUSION It is grotesque and unbiblical to suggest God removes individual free will, even when prophecies exist that must come true.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE and ... RESPONSIBILITY

[JehovahsWitness]

The person was not born destined for everlasting death.
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Nobody is born destined for everlasting death. Their everlasting death, like the man that jumps of a cliff, will be always the result of an individuals informed choice. To say otherwise is to imply God is unjust which he cannot be.

I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live[/color]

God is loving and kind and since life is dependent on obedience he would never give life and render it impossible for someone to obey him. That would be like putting a man dying of thirst through absolutely no fault of his own, in a room and placing a glass of water just out of his reach. We would normally call someone that did such a thing a sadist.



JW

[2timothy316]

God on the other hand exists outside of the universe and it's time line and can see all out times from His existence.. So to God all universe history has been observed and thus He foreknew our entire lives at the very start of creation and thus can know our eternal destiny..

Question: All of the wicked people that have ever lived and all of the wicked things ever done, before the existance of these people and the universe itself where did all of these wicked people's action exist?

Well it is very hard to explain this using Human language.. All i can use is an analogy.. But think of it this way.. All the things that where ever going to happen in the universe had in a way already happened at the moment of creation of this universe, from Gods Point of View outside the Universe... So the universe and it's history is like a picture.. that can be viewed by God in it's totality at one time.. But for us inside this picture we go from one pixel to the next.. Day by day and each new pixel is revealed to us one at a time..

So you're saying that the wicked acts of a person existed in God's thoughts before they existed in the person. Blades of grass are not my concern, but the acts of wickedness mankind act out are. When does God know these acts are going to happen? is it before or after a person comes into existence?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]


It is a long question and I dont think Adstar is speaking about predestination but of foreknowledge which isn't the same thing. Still it is a good question for those that believe God predestined people to be either wicked or good. I think the answer would be, (at least from the predestination camp **IF ** they thought things through to its logical conclusion)... all those evil acts would exist in God.

It would be there, in the mind of God that that every evil act would begin. It would be in him that they originated, and stayed in him until he saw fit to create someone to carry them out. All evil acts would begin in Gods mind and all evil acts, from the horrific tortures of the middle ages to the children being raped some dark corner as we speak, would first have been imagined in the mind of God prior to his creating someone destined to carry them out.

JW

Yes i am talking about foreknowledge.. which allows God to predestination whom will be transformed into sharing the eternal likeness of Jesus.. The foreknowledge horse pulls the Predestined carriage.. But for Calvinists who do believe in their interpretation of predestination they believe that God created people with no real free will.. They believe God created some to be saved by God forcing pre-programing them to believe and have faith in His Atonement and that God pre-programed others to have no other option but to reject Gods will and thus be cast into the eternal lake of fire....

Of course i find the Calvinist interpretation of scripture to be incredibly offensive to the character of God.. It turns God into some kind of mega psychopath..

I also find that interpretation of Scripture to be incredibly offensive to God. Having said that, I think that Calvinists don't take ALL Scripture into consideration. They are revealing that they do not understand God or what the Bible says about Him, at all. They do "turn God into a mega psychopath!"

As I said before on this thread, God can CHOOSE what He wants to know. Otherwise He couldn't keep a straight face when telling people that THEY can choose to be rotten or good.

"You must CHOOSE life so that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him..." (Deuteronomy 30:19b,20)



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[Tcg]

As I said before on this thread, God can CHOOSE what He wants to know. Otherwise He couldn't keep a straight face when telling people that THEY can choose to be rotten or good.

This doesn't add up logically. Before God could "CHOOSE what He wants to know", he'd have to know those things he is choosing not to know.

If God is omniscient, there is nothing he could not know. If he isn't omniscient, one would have to question why he earned the title "God."


Tcg

[2timothy316]

As I said before on this thread, God can CHOOSE what He wants to know. Otherwise He couldn't keep a straight face when telling people that THEY can choose to be rotten or good.

This doesn't add up logically. Before God could "CHOOSE what He wants to know", he'd have to know those things he is choosing not to know.

If God is omniscient, there is nothing he could not know. If he isn't omniscient, one would have to question why he earned the title "God."


Tcg

So how would you answer the question: When does God know a person's wicked act, before or after they come into existence?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 13 by 2timothy316]

At the moment He created the universe.. He foreknows it all.. The future path of every proton, election and neutron.. He knew every blade of grass that was ever going to grow and how long it would grow.. He foreknew every moment of every human individuals entire life..

And for His foreknowledge he placed the names of all that would be redeemed in his book of life.. As the Bible says "'from the foundation of the world""

(Revelation 17:8) "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

(Ephesians 1:4-5) "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: {5} Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

The phrase "from the founding of the world" is totally misunderstood by those that have taught that from the beginning of the creation of the planet (or even earlier), God knew all things about everyone, and that He chose certain ones to be saved. You indicate that you are very interested in future events. Then you will be interested, I think, in scrutinizing all of the terms that are involved here.

What is "the world" that is mentioned? It is mankind alienated from God, as referred to at, for example, I John 2:15-17. This is not the planet. It is also not the creation of Adam and Eve. They were not alienated from God at first. It was AFTER they rebelled that the world alienated from God began. Therefore, when Adam and Eve fell away and "the world" began, God planned to set up a resisting force to deal with the Resister, and THAT was when He decided to have a group of humans go to heaven to rule with the Messiah who would come to heal the planet and heal those that did not become part of the "world." So it was not predestined from the beginning of the creation that certain ones would be part of the Holy Ones that would rule with Christ. It wasn't even predestined that Christ would have to come down here to Earth to die. If A&E had remained faithful, Christ would never have had to come.

Another interesting point: The "world" actually began with the birth of Cain. He was the first of the "world" alienated from God. So when it says that someone was certain to be part of the ruling class "before the foundation of the world," it was BETWEEN the falling away by Adam and the birth of Cain. There was no need to have any plan to redeem mankind before A&E sinned. There was no choosing of anybody to do anything. All was good until Adam sinned. THEN God immediately put into play the prophecy of a Savior that would redeem mankind. THEN, the Messiah was purposed to come. THEN the prophecy of people from the earth to rule with him was instituted (though NOT individuals, just the idea of a special GROUP to rule; see Daniel 7:27).

Analyze this and see if it doesn't make sense.

There are other prophesies that you will find fascinating. Check into the prophecy of the "Immense Image" of Daniel chapter 2. It is awesome. www.jw.org is the place to find more amazing truths.

[PinSeeker]

Again, thank you, Adstar, for bringing up Paul's use of the word 'foreknowledge' in Romans 8:29.

The common meaning of 'to foreknow' is to know something beforehand, in advance of its happening, so many believe God foresees who will believe, and that this foreknowledge is the basis of His predestination. But this cannot be right, for at least two reasons:

• A. In this sense God foreknows everybody and everything, whereas Paul is referring to a particular group ("...those whom He foreknew...").
  
  B. If God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit, instead of in Him and His mercy, and this is contrary to Paul's whole emphasis, here, namely God's free initiative of grace.

Rather, 'to know' as it is used here expresses much more than mere intellectual cognition; it denotes a personal relationship of care and affection. Thus, when God 'knows' people, He watches over them, and cares for them; in light of this Biblical usage, 'know' is used in a sense practically synonymous with "love," so "whom He foreknew" is therefore virtually equivalent to "whom He foreloved." So 'foreknowledge' is a sovereign, distinguishing love. This fits hand in hand with Moses' great statement that "The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples... But it was because the LORD loved you..."

What many believe the Gospel to be is actually a perversion of God's Gospel, an "anti-gospel," as it were. The anti-gospel is based on a myth that all men have a will that is free from the bondage of sin to choose whether to believe in Jesus. The Bible, however, states that all men are spiritually dead and cannot believe in Jesus unless they are born again of the Holy Spirit:

• "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved -- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:1-7]
  
  "Jesus answered him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?' Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.' " [John 3:3-8]

God has chosen his elect to be saved by his grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to his purpose, which He set forth in Christ." [Ephesians 1:3-9]
  
  "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:8-10]

God gifts his elect with the faith needed to believe in Jesus:

• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." [Hebrews 12:1-2]
  
  "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." [John 1:12-13]

The devil’s false gospel contradicts the word of God and reverses the order of things. Under the anti-gospel, instead of a sovereign God choosing his elect, sovereign man decides whether to choose God. This is utterly false, and in a real sense, completely contrary to the character and love of God.

The calling of the Lord Jesus Christ is effectual; all who are chosen for salvation will believe in Jesus:

• "(Jesus said) 'All that the Father gives me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the Last Day.' So the Jews grumbled about Him, because He said, 'I am the bread that came down from heaven.' They said, 'Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?â€� Jesus answered them, 'Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the Last Day." [John 6:37-44]

The anti-gospel has a false Jesus, who only offers the possibility of salvation, with no assurance. The anti-gospel makes God out to be a liar by denying the total depravity of man and the sovereign election of God. And, all who preach that false gospel are under a curse from God. Paul says:

• "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel -- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." [Galatians 1:6-9]

So. Now. You said:

• "Of course I find the Calvinist interpretation of scripture to be incredibly offensive to the character of God.. It turns God into some kind of mega psychopath."

Well, you find it to be "incredibly offensive" to what you wrongly think it conveys about the character of God. That, and your -- inadvertent as it may be -- total dismissal of God's justice, which He executes to perfection alongside and hand-in-hand with His perfect love and His perfect holiness.

John Calvin's understanding of this and of Scripture as a whole was very sound, as was Augustine's before him and many more since. Even so, God alone -- and neither Augustine nor Calvin nor any other man (or woman) -- be the glory.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 20 by Adstar]

Predestined the GROUP but not individuals.



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[onewithhim]

As I said before on this thread, God can CHOOSE what He wants to know. Otherwise He couldn't keep a straight face when telling people that THEY can choose to be rotten or good.

This doesn't add up logically. Before God could "CHOOSE what He wants to know", he'd have to know those things he is choosing not to know.

If God is omniscient, there is nothing he could not know. If he isn't omniscient, one would have to question why he earned the title "God."


Tcg

I disagree. God could choose not to know what Adam would do when confronted with Eve and the fruit. Adam could've gone either way.


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