Once saved

[Menotu]

Is this true?
My grandfather is a retired minister (and an abusive father and husband I should point out). He taught his church that the concept of 'once saved always saved' is true. Many in the city I grew up in attended that church - and many still do even though he's no longer preaching.
Is the concept of 'once saved always saved' true? It is, as I understand it (I didn't attend his church) is once Jesus saves you from your sin, nothing you can do past blasphemy can prohibit you from getting in to heaven. It seems it was a 'once forgiven all future sin will be forgiven'.

I wonder if it's worth mentioning that many members of this church appear to be anything but Christian; from abusers, to adulterers to thieves - with the exception of murderers, most all of them continue to run the course of continued sinners (and not the "we've all sinned" type but the 'I sinned yesterday and will sin tomorrow" type.)

[PinSeeker]

* "...Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith..." [Hebrews 12:2][/list]

What has thagngot to Do with predestination?

Well, that He both started it and will bring it to completion -- finish and perfect it. This will happen, because God has purposed it and ordained it, according to His will. God's purposes cannot be thwarted. It's not rocket science, but it is, surely, the truth according to God's holy Word. Thanks be to God.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

So finishing something is in itself evidence of predestination? Of course the runner of a race may declare he won because he was predestined to, but if when asked for proof he replies "Well I won didnt I?!"

This is called circular reasoning.

Jesus finished his course and did so perfectly. To say he was predestined to implies that he could not have failed, which is contrary to scripture since he himself prayed for help to succeed which would have been redundant if failure was not an option. To point to his success as evidence of predestination is circular reasoning. And circular reasoning proves nothing except perhaps, that one knows how to move in a circle.

LOL! You can play with -- manipulate, according to some predispensation toward a particular belief or point of view -- words all you want, JW. That's fine with me. It's not good, especially -- infinitely more so, actually -- when it comes to the Word of God. But hey, like I said, you can do what you want.

You said, "Jesus finished his course and did so perfectly." This I agree with 100 percent. He accomplished redemption/salvation for those He came to save, for sure, and declared it so on the cross by crying, in a loud voice, "It is finished!"

But then you say, "To say he was predestined to implies that he could not have failed, which is contrary to scripture since he himself prayed for help to succeed which would have been redundant if failure was not an option." Besides this being a really cumbersome and/or obtuse statement in and of itself, I was not saying Jesus was predestined at all; neither does Scripture at any point. And Jesus did not pray for "help to succeed," but rather consciously, voluntarily, and obediently "endured the cross, despising the shame," as the writer of Hebrews (12:22) says.

You also said, "To point to his success as evidence of predestination is circular reasoning." To which I say, this is not what I was doing in any shape, form, or fashion.

Finally, you say "...circular reasoning proves nothing except perhaps, that one knows how to move in a circle." I'm inclined to agree with this, but it's a total non sequitur.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever." [Jude 24-25]

Are you using this passage to support the teaching of predestination? If so what is in this passage that in in your opinion does this?

Not directly, no. What it really directly supports is the concept of perseverance of the saints -- also stated as "once saved, always saved." God is able to keep us from stumbling. This is the playing out to the end -- the inevitable result of -- God's predestination of some to eternal life.

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever." [Jude 24-25]

Are you using this passage to support the teaching of predestination? If so what is in this passage that in in your opinion does this?

I wonder that also. It is a nice verse about Jehovah, the only true God (John 17:3), and how He deserves glory and dominion forever.


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[Checkpoint]

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever." [Jude 24-25]

Are you using this passage to support the teaching of predestination? If so what is in this passage that in in your opinion does this?

I wonder that also. It is a nice verse about Jehovah, the only true God (John 17:3), and how He deserves glory and dominion forever.


.

I don't think so.

I see how this Jude passage can be used in support of "once saved, always saved"(verse 24).

[Adstar]

[Replying to post 1 by Menotu]

OSAS is a doctrine derived from Calvin who created the 5 pillar T,U,L,I,P doctrines..

The Bible does support that no outside actor can cause one to lose their salvation..

The Bible does not however say that an individuel can cast away their own salvation by ceasing to believe Jesus and His Atonement..

People ""fall away"" from believing Jesus.. People fall away into unbiblical cults

The Bible states that there will be some on the day of judgement who will cry LORD LORD to Jesus but He will say i never knew you.. Thus there are those who beieve they are followers of Jesus but who are following another jesus of their own or some other person creation..



I guess i will post the TULIP doctrines and bold the one that is is commonly called OSAS..

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints."

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 25 by Adstar]

It's worth mentioning that there were never really "five points" to Calvinism. The five points of Calvinism only came about because Jacobus Arminius set forth five statements, or assertions, if you will, concerning the doctrine of salvation (soteriology). Calvin's comprehensive system of biblical understanding/interpretation is merely used to refute Arminius's five (wrong) assertions.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by Menotu]

OSAS is a doctrine derived from Calvin who created the 5 pillar T,U,L,I,P doctrines..

The Bible does support that no outside actor can cause one to lose their salvation..

The Bible does not however say that an individuel can cast away their own salvation by ceasing to believe Jesus and His Atonement..

People ""fall away"" from believing Jesus.. People fall away into unbiblical cults

The Bible states that there will be some on the day of judgement who will cry LORD LORD to Jesus but He will say i never knew you.. Thus there are those who beieve they are followers of Jesus but who are following another jesus of their own or some other person creation..



I guess i will post the TULIP doctrines and bold the one that is is commonly called OSAS..

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints."

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."

Thank you for your post outlining the basic tenets of Calvinism.

Do you yourself accept and believe all of them, or some, or none of them?

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 1 by Menotu]

Once saved always saved? I think this is the kind of doctrine perpetrated by those who are not saved to justify (to themselves and others) their sins. Frankly, I doubt they were ever saved at all.

Those who are, love mercy, do justly, and walk humbly with their God. And do not worry overmuch about their own spiritual status. That just comes with territory.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 25 by Adstar]

It's worth mentioning that there were never really "five points" to Calvinism. The five points of Calvinism only came about because Jacobus Arminius set forth five statements, or assertions, if you will, concerning the doctrine of salvation (soteriology). Calvin's comprehensive system of biblical understanding/interpretation is merely used to refute Arminius's five (wrong) assertions.

God Saves Sinners
Dr. J. I. Packer

The very act of setting out Calvinistic soteriology [the doctrine of salvation] in the form of five distinct points (a number due, as we saw, merely to the fact that there were five Arminian points for the Synod of Dort to answer) tends to obscure the organic character of Calvinistic thought on this subject. For the five points, though separately stated, are inseparable. They hang together; you cannot reject one without rejecting them all, at least in the sense in which the Synod meant them. For to Calvinism there is really only one point to be made in the field of soteriology: the point that God saves sinners.

God -- the Triune Jehovah, Father, Son and Spirit; three Persons working together in sovereign wisdom, power and love to achieve the salvation of a chosen people, the Father electing, the Son fulfilling the Father's will by redeeming, the Spirit executing the purpose of Father and Son by renewing.

Saves -- does everything, first to last, that is involved in bringing man from death in sin to life in glory: plans, achieves and communicates redemption, calls and keeps, justifies, sanctifies, glorifies.

Sinners -- men as God finds them, guilty, vile, helpless, powerless, unable to lift a finger to do God's will or better their spiritual lot.

God saves sinners, and the force of this confession may not be weakened by disrupting the unity of the work of the Trinity, or by dividing the achievement of salvation between God and man and making the decisive part man's own, or by soft-pedaling the sinner's inability so as to allow him to share the praise of his salvation with his Saviour. This is the one point of Calvinistic soteriology which the "five points" are concerned to establish and Arminianism in all its forms to deny: namely, that sinners do not save themselves in any sense at all, but that salvation, first and last, whole and entire, past, present and future, is of the Lord, to whom be glory for ever; amen.

Dr. J.I. Packer, Introductory Essay, in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, by John Owen (London: Banner of Truth, 1959) 4-5.

[PinSeeker]

Those who are (saved), love mercy, do justly, and walk humbly with their God. And do not worry overmuch about their own spiritual status. That just comes with territory.

Absolutely, because their assurance, security and identity is in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit -- the Triune Jehovah -- and not in themselves. To Him be all praise, glory, blessing, and honor, forever and ever, amen.