"Heaven and earth":

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:25 pm

This thread stems from this exchange:

onewithhim asked:

[What are your thoughts about "heaven and earth"?]

Checkpoint answered:

[Well, I have certainly given it more thoughts since arriving at this debating site.

One will pass away, and another will appear, is at least a start that we can agree on in any discussion.

Beyond that, there are many thoughts, many opinions, many interpretations of what relevant scripture means and how to approach it.

My thoughts, my opinions, my way of approach, are at most still tentative.

But I welcome discussion of any aspect and any verses.

But not on this thread. but on a new one I am about to start.

We can share there our thoughts on "heaven and earth"? (i.e. not heaven only and not earth only)]

So, join this discussion and debate!

Menotu · Post by **Menotu** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:30 pm

[Replying to post 9 by 2timothy316]

Because everyone has their own opinion. Metrics are, at best, dependent on whom you talk to and/or where you get them from.
Anything with religion, outside of facts like this religion is based on this belief, etc, is personal opinion.
You can't get all Christians to agree on the same things, I don' tsee this being any different.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:05 pm

Menotu wrote: [Replying to post 9 by 2timothy316]

Because everyone has their own opinion. Metrics are, at best, dependent on whom you talk to and/or where you get them from.
Anything with religion, outside of facts like this religion is based on this belief, etc, is personal opinion.
You can't get all Christians to agree on the same things, I don' tsee this being any different.

This is a classic logical fallacy. Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true. Someone has spoken the truth in all the muck that is out there. Someone or many have the truth right now. All that remains is for time to pass to see who is right, who has done their homework and made a fully educated decision. Who was wise in what they chose as fact and what they tossed as trash.

Menotu · Post by **Menotu** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:58 pm

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true.

Yes, which is why we will never find the truth on things religious. Too many opinions about what the truth is to the point the truth, while existing, gets lost in all the mumbo jumbo

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:42 pm

Menotu wrote: [Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true.
Yes, which is why we will never find the truth on things religious. Too many opinions about what the truth is to the point the truth, while existing, gets lost in all the mumbo jumbo

So, if what you are saying is truth, what are y0u s8ggest9ng we do, and/or we don't do?

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:58 pm

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Someone has spoken the truth in all the muck that is out there. Someone or many have the truth right now. All that remains is for time to pass to see who is right, who has done their homework and made a fully educated decision. Who was wise in what they chose as fact and what they tossed as trash.

Who then, in this scenario, is that someone, and who have the truth right now?

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:15 am

Menotu wrote: [Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true.
Yes, which is why we will never find the truth on things religious. Too many opinions about what the truth is to the point the truth, while existing, gets lost in all the mumbo jumbo

That's why we have the instruction book---the Bible. If someone does their homework, like timothy suggested, they can uncover the truth of it all. Too many are too inert to do any intensive searching. Too many have their heads in the sand, and they prefer it that way.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:32 am

onewithhim wrote: I'm very surprised that this isn't engendering more comments!

I think its because both terms are used in scripture in such a wide variety of ways. If you look in the Insight book for example under "heaven (s)" you will get several pages of explanations. Christendoms confusion as to the fate of this our planet earth arises at least in part from her inability to properly process metaphor and my discussions on this forum has lead me to believe it's not just the case for some religious people.

If one has a firm grasp of the difference between literal and figurative, spiritual and physical, it's pretty simple but we are on a site where there is a thread battling with the conundrum as to whether there is any difference between Christ and Adolf Hitler, it was once proposed the Ascention was in fact Jesus wandering off in the general direction of India, and many cannot figure out if Christ's command to "Love your enemies" would or would not include killing them ... all this and more might be an indication its sometimes best to lower the bar.

JW

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:56 am

Menotu wrote: [Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true.
Yes, which is why we will never find the truth on things religious. Too many opinions about what the truth is to the point the truth, while existing, gets lost in all the mumbo jumbo

People never find truth because they stop looking. They illogically believe it's not possible as their reason. Yet more than likely you've heard something that is true many times yet because you're not looking a truth passes you by. Because I know first hand exactly how you feel and it wasn't until I started looking that I found truths.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:58 am

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Someone has spoken the truth in all the muck that is out there. Someone or many have the truth right now. All that remains is for time to pass to see who is right, who has done their homework and made a fully educated decision. Who was wise in what they chose as fact and what they tossed as trash.
Who then, in this scenario, is that someone, and who have the truth right now?

Jehovah God and His Son Jesus Christ. Find them and you'll have your truth.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:03 am

onewithhim wrote:
Menotu wrote: [Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true.
Yes, which is why we will never find the truth on things religious. Too many opinions about what the truth is to the point the truth, while existing, gets lost in all the mumbo jumbo
That's why we have the instruction book---the Bible. If someone does their homework, like timothy suggested, they can uncover the truth of it all. Too many are too inert to do any intensive searching. Too many have their heads in the sand, and they prefer it that way.

Well these poor people are tossed around like sheep without a shepherd. I remember being in groups of people drinking and partying. People talking big like they know something. "No one can find truth" they'd say and numerous other opinions. They all sounded true...and seemed to make sense...come to find out, these sayings are excuses to avoid work on something that we are told is not important anyway, so don't try to figure it out. It's like ship in stormy seas with no rudder and no sail. Folks will go wherever people take them.

My suggestion, go test everything people are teaching you. Yes it will take work, but that is what it will take if you want truth. If you don't care then get back into the boat. Who knows, after decades of drifting perhaps you will bump into one thing that is true. As for the rest, grab a sail and take hold of the rudder and for the love of yourself make your own destinations. Do not expect someone to who spends 80% of their time setting on a couch with a beer in their hand or in bars to guide anyone to anywhere of benefit. Always consider what work a person has done whether to listen to them or not.

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