What's the BEST (most realistic) Approach to Homosexuality?

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melikio
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What's the BEST (most realistic) Approach to Homosexuality?

Post #1

Post by melikio »

This is the One Stop thread for all discussion that revolves around the issue of homosexuality.

ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE

Please do not use our Community to in any way promote or advocate the acceptability of same-sex unions/marriage, homosexual activity, or homosexual adoption rights.

For the sake of this discussion the following definitions will be used:

Homosexual ::
A person who engages in sexual relations with members of the same gender

SSA (Same Sex Attraction) ::
A person who struggles with being attracted to members of the same gender but abstains from engaging in sexual relations with them.

Please do not reply to this message within the Community.

Please email xxxx@sxxxx.com with questions, comments, or concerns.

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On one particular internet forum, this message is frequently posted by the site ADMIN. Not that anyone necessarily intends to advocate what is sinful, but that often, any viewpoint which even slightly mitigates the typical SINS perpetrated upon "homosexuals" (in the name of "God", "truth" or "morality") were/are often viewed as being against that site's TOS. The policy and the way it is enforced is a matter of TOS; still, I believe that approach or attitude is ultimately unhealthy and BOGUS as viewed in light of discussing things openly in the light of "truth" and "reason".

And while I will agree that it is within the site owner’s property rights to LIMIT the information which is contained there, it does (IMV) present a MASSIVE problem for Christians overall, in discussing homosexuality (as homosexuality actually affects the lives of real human beings). I used to be a member at that website; I left after some important questions (which I address below) went unaddressed and unanswered.

If so many CHRISTIANS believe that there is only one very LIMITED way to approach and/or discuss "homosexuality", then how do they/we expect to (ever) resolve the myriad issues “surrounding” the topic? I am certain people are being lost (driven away) because many "Christians" are just so "unreal".

Or is it simply that their actual “agenda” doesn’t allow for any real resolution of the problems? Does the agenda itself actually control the real opportunities for those seeking “truth” to hear and examine all sides honestly and openly? I personally think it does perpetuate the skewing of actual truth (overall).

The article here:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/1 ... cus12.html,
shows an approach to the related issues, which to me (and others) is far more realistic than the approach of the sample TOS quoted above.

Am I right or wrong, or somewhere near the "middle"?

Does anyone agree with that forum ADMIN's approach and/or related policy?

(In any case, PLEASE support your reasoning as best you can as a HUMAN BEING; just be REAL and frank, don't pretend you know more than you really do.)

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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micatala
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Post #2

Post by micatala »

Very good article, mel. I especially like the ending.
Anthony Robinson wrote: Even if this analogy is not convincing, and I know it won't be for many, there may be one further point to be directed to all of us in the currently polarized debate. I have a friend who organizes matters and questions before him in three piles. There is "Accept," and there is "Reject." But there is a third possible category. He calls it "Awaiting Further Light." It seems to me that people of faith, who by definition know that God is God and they are not God and that they therefore lack the full, complete and absolute Truth, might more regularly employ the "Awaiting Further Light" category. We might, then, come to the contemporary debates on this issue, as well as others, with a greater capacity to listen, to listen to views not our own. If there is one quality that might characterize faith and religious people in our day, my own vote is for a greater measure of humility.
The situation would be orders of magnitude improved if people on both sides of the issue would simply:

1. Speak the truth.

2. Remember not to present their opinions as God's.

3. Remember not to present speculations and unsubstantiated assertions as incontrovertible facts.

"Awaiting further light" is a great way to describe this.

melikio
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Much to Consider

Post #3

Post by melikio »

micatala wrote:
"Awaiting further light" is a great way to describe this.
I definitely agree.

There is often so much more to consider, than many are encouraged to.

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

melikio
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Don't Believe the "HYPE"

Post #4

Post by melikio »

http://www.equip.org/free/DH055-1.htm
http://www.equip.org/free/DH055-2.htm

These are NOT pro-gay links. I just wanted to show something that would be considered (by many) as being reasonably authoritative, in making the following points:

If this is what many accept and believe about homosexuality, then why the often overly simplistic approach to homosexual people? It's as if many Christians DO believe they will (on the spot) or a few months down the road, see the human or medical equivatent of someone REGROWING A LEG (or an eye...etc.).

In "faith", we who believe understand that can POSSIBLY come to be, but I've never met a person who has witnessed of provided proof that such things DO indeed take place. And while that diminishes my faith in no significant way, it is something that some people are indeed afraid of discussing openly.

The links I provided above do provide some evidence to show that "change" is possible, but in my many years in church I patiently and quietly observed (even sought) to hear the kind of testimony (and acceptance of those struggling), which would indicate that God intended to "change" homosexual people (as many have come to expect, based upon their interpretation of the Bible).

You see, a lot of people are conditioned to "believe", and I'm not against that. But I think we have to do better with allowing beliefs to be challenged. In this day and time there is enough to examine intellectually, so that the journey in "faith" which one takes need not be based entirely upon BLIND steps or progression. We have natural sciences and social sciences to help guide people in many different things.

It's not shocking to most, that over time, science has exposed fallacies and myths perpetrated by religious "beliefs". And personally, I've learned to NOT put 100% "faith" in "science". You see, it IS about having some kind of balance, even cross-checking both religion and reality with one another.

Now, I realize some people WISH they could live in a world where things are 100% FAITH, but we do not; we often have to THINK our way out of certain things. Not to say that prayer and faith are not of awesome significance, but to be honestly-realistic in assessing the myriad approaches to actual situations and problems that ALL HUMAN BEINGS must face. The stories of Jesus, His life and ressurection give me hope that something FAR beyond my understanding is working for the good of us all; but the CONSTANT negative badgering and dehumanization by "Christians" who assume they know what is right/best for each and every homosexual person in this world, is effectively arrogant and unduly burdensome to all who must endure it.

And it wasn't hard to correlate the horribly "stilted" treatment homosexual people often receive in this world, compared to the relatively-light concerns heterosexuals endure concerning their actions (or orientation). Just listening to people talk (in general about homosexuality), shows how NOT CHRISTIAN many of the things "Christian" say and believe about homosexuals really are. And to compound things, all the closeted people who really want nothing more than to be "protected" from inherent evils they likely face in people, are literally hearing how hated and despised they truly are by many who claim to be showing "love".

It's basically neurotic for a society or civilization on this planet to imagine that homosexuality and homosexuals aren't (at least) common. And to treat it in so spectacular a manner, especially where it concerns certain policies and doctrines is simply biased and wrong. I'm very understanding that HEDONISM and wantonly-irresponsible sexual behaviors are better discouraged; there are things that two people do, the consequences of which can spill over into society. But still, the scapegoating and general discrimination against ALL things homosexual (which our society seems to promote by default), is generally something that needs to be mitigated. There may not be enough evidence to PROVE what causes "homosexuality" (yet), but there is enough evidence to show that the "treatment" we (as a society/world) have allowed homosexual people to endure, has done little to bring about constructive or positive results.

I know there are many "activists" on all side of the various arguments; but that is not where my emphases rest. I'm more concerned with the CORE of the individual human beings (all of us, not merely gay people) where it concerns exactly how we navigate (journey) to the truth. Some see this as a WAR, and perhaps it is, but I think it's reasonable to say that we rarely see the SPIRITUAL WEAPONS deployed, in comparison to the onslaught of VISCERAL assaults commonly unleashed upon homosexual people. THIS IS A SIGNIFICANT SPIRITUAL PROBLEM (often overlooked by many who consider themselves warriors FOR "righteousness"). And it is like a dark cloud covering the eyes of many on all sides of the myriad opinions which exist. It is the primary reason (in my view) that "Christians" are often busy spinning their wheels concerning homosexuality (ineffectual) and homosexuals often relegated to spending their lives, operating from and hiding in social/spiritual-bunkers; peeping out (occassionally) to see where the battle has taken this world. (I don't believe that Jesus/God meant for that to happen to us/them).

In the end (for Christians) it cannot be ignored, that there WILL be an account of how people allowed themselves to "feel" toward homosexual people, and also an account of what was done by individuals to either help or hurt them. A real discussion of that "accounting" would serve to balance the "religion" so often hurled ruthlessly at homosexuals; and there are social settings more or less conducive to allowing such "accountability".

Things do change (even our views of right/wrong). While many have their views or interpretations of the Bible (solidly-grounded in their minds) today, it's clear enough, that the societies/civilizations surrounding those many different biblical views (or religion) tend to evolve. And while that can seem ominous to some, others realize that we are on a journey of sorts... not locked into a single location on a cosmic map, contained by a "single" idea/issue.

Homosexuality is a significant issue indeed; but I think it's time for people to understand that it's not the most important or profound issue of all (even as they deal with it). For me, it's not a matter of merely saying it's "wrong" or "right"; but it is also a matter of really understanding the people affected by it. And as much as some don't want it to happen (and even fight against it), for people to gain that understanding the society in which they live will evolve to meet the challenge.

Gay people are everywhere in our lives (common), and they are no different than most others finding their way in this reality (secular or spiritual). Even so, if they are hunted down, spot-lighted and oppressed openly, how can they NOT become "spectacularized" and "misunderstood" in some way(s)? The HYPE itself is DISTORTION; I and many others believe it's time to address that period.

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Post #5

Post by youngborean »

Personally, I don't think that there is justification for going outside of one's Church or Congregation to combat the issue of homosexuality. I think that the lesson Jesus gives to simply preach the gospel and if the gospel is not heard to shake the dust off of one's feet. In this a believer should make no distinction in who they are giving the message to. I think you are showing a point that there seems to be a measure of Christian activism against homosexuality, which is not scriptural in my mind.

Homosexual practices in the church are a different matter I would say. I think these practices should be approached with love without compromsing the examples given in scripture. I do not believe that pointing out sin or inappropriate behaviour according to scripture somehow does not show love to someone. The key to me is that the individual in this practice was able to make up their own mind according to scripture.

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It's God's Providence (in the end)

Post #6

Post by melikio »

Personally, I don't think that there is justification for going outside of one's Church or Congregation to combat the issue of homosexuality. I think that the lesson Jesus gives to simply preach the gospel and if the gospel is not heard to shake the dust off of one's feet.
This makes far more sense than what many "Christians" tend to illustrate concerning homosexuality.

Still, there are those who give you the impression that they are trying to rid the world of homosexuality and homosexuals. Unfortuantely, that is being indirectly implied in many churches. So, what we have are some places that homosexuals are not likely to visit or reside.

And more than the spiritual aspects surrounding human sexuality, are the social aspects. For VERY LONG TIME, people have thought/believed that harshness toward homosexuals was/is the way to go. They either could not or would not see that all it did was chase struggling people into the "shadows" (or margins). The problem I have with that, is that the manner in which some are interpreting verses around homosexuality itself, make some churches, groups and communities the absolute last place a "homosexual" would go for help or instruction. It's as if one steps in the door to be changed, but for the reason that those there will "love" them. And in reality, that is the way it often happens; if you are "gay", you realize that a lot of "Christian" people have either been inadvertenly conditioned or taught to HATE you. That is a "weight" you carry; and those most fortunate usually get stronger because of it.
Homosexual practices in the church are a different matter I would say.

Sin is sin; homosexual people need not be "singled-out" as they too often are.
I think these practices should be approached with love without compromsing the examples given in scripture.

People have been very hypocritical about this; some are violent, murderers, divorced, liars, back-biters...etc. Homosexuals somehow became the POSTER children. I can't explain it, I just know how it affected me and other I know.
I do not believe that pointing out sin or inappropriate behaviour according to scripture somehow does not show love to someone.

It DOES withold "love", if the person communicating the message isn't ABOUT love for the people they are speaking to. Cold "religion" affects more than homosexuals.
The key to me is that the individual in this practice was able to make up their own mind according to scripture.

Homosexuality is more than the "act" or "practice". In large part it the inner struggles, the confusion, the resisting, the attempting to change, the rejection the hurt, the pain, the sadness, the hatred and the fear of those who are labeled as "normal". It IS complicated socially as well as spiritually and morally. People who aren't homosexual, put a LOT of extra weight on those who are; and that really shouldn't be (not if love [1Cor13] really means anything).

But I agree that people should not be PRESSURED to be "righteous"; they must ultimately decide before God (and about many more things than their "sexuality").

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Post #7

Post by r~ »

admin wrote:Please do not use our Community to in any way promote or advocate the acceptability of same-sex unions/marriage, homosexual activity, or homosexual adoption rights.


Please forgive me, but I do not understand the motivation or spirit behind this admonition. Please understand that I am reborn in the Holy Spirit and I am now compelled to wrestle with pharisees, lawyers, skeptics and doubters.

Would it not be more Christian in Spirit to warn posters against promoting or advocating the acceptability of persecuting other sinners (such as homosexuals)? Please explain how it is possible to love one’s neighbor as oneself; yet withhold that same equality based on sin or sex.

A Christian in Spirit understands that it is not what you do to or with your body that makes your spirit unclean, it is how you treat your neighbor. Render unto God that which is God’s (judgment of sin to be specific); judge not sin lest your own sins be judged and condemned. Let those without sin cast the first stony words against the sin of homosexuality.

Jesus stood against those that would persecute sins and sinners. Those opposing this message silenced him. So it is that I stand against those that would condone or accept the persecution of sinners. Will the admins silence me?

I am asking these questions with all due respect. If this is a forum seeking God’s truth, please allow my observations of the Spirit of truth.


melikio:

The best approach to homosexuality is the same approach as to the abomination and sin of eating shellfish or the abomination and sin of wearing cotton and wool together. If it is a sin for you: DON’T DO IT, but do not persecute others for (pass laws against) sins. Only God has just authority to judge sins. Hypocrites do not.

The best and Christian in Spirit approach to homosexuality is outlined by the same self-evident truths (some of) our founding fathers understood:

All are equal in rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
It is the duty of government to secure these rights through regulation and justice.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, render unto God, that which is God’s.

I am
In the Spirit
ItS
r~

melikio
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I agree.

Post #8

Post by melikio »

r~ wrote:
admin wrote:Please do not use our Community to in any way promote or advocate the acceptability of same-sex unions/marriage, homosexual activity, or homosexual adoption rights.


Please forgive me, but I do not understand the motivation or spirit behind this admonition. Please understand that I am reborn in the Holy Spirit and I am now compelled to wrestle with pharisees, lawyers, skeptics and doubters.

Would it not be more Christian in Spirit to warn posters against promoting or advocating the acceptability of persecuting other sinners (such as homosexuals)? Please explain how it is possible to love one’s neighbor as oneself; yet withhold that same equality based on sin or sex.

A Christian in Spirit understands that it is not what you do to or with your body that makes your spirit unclean, it is how you treat your neighbor. Render unto God that which is God’s (judgment of sin to be specific); judge not sin lest your own sins be judged and condemned. Let those without sin cast the first stony words against the sin of homosexuality.

Jesus stood against those that would persecute sins and sinners. Those opposing this message silenced him. So it is that I stand against those that would condone or accept the persecution of sinners. Will the admins silence me?

I am asking these questions with all due respect. If this is a forum seeking God’s truth, please allow my observations of the Spirit of truth.


melikio:

The best approach to homosexuality is the same approach as to the abomination and sin of eating shellfish or the abomination and sin of wearing cotton and wool together. If it is a sin for you: DON’T DO IT, but do not persecute others for (pass laws against) sins. Only God has just authority to judge sins. Hypocrites do not.

The best and Christian in Spirit approach to homosexuality is outlined by the same self-evident truths (some of) our founding fathers understood:

All are equal in rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
It is the duty of government to secure these rights through regulation and justice.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, render unto God, that which is God’s.

I am
In the Spirit
ItS
r~
r~,

Thanks for the insight; I believe what you do (overall) as it relates to dealing with homosexuality and homosexuals.

Some people have made homosexuality into an offense that seems to rival "murder" or in some cases "child molesation".

Ultimately, my view is far more concerned with the struggling, lonely kid, man, woman who has been rejected because of their sexual orientation. It's sad to say that many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians are the WORST OFFENDERS when it comes to rejecting the very people whom Jesus would accept.

I was one of those who went through the first part of my life, trying to handle being "gay" alone, because I didn't think I could/should talk to anyone about it; I was so lonely, yet did the best could with everything I had to.

At this point, I don't really care what other anti-gay Christians think of homosexuals and homosexuality; still, I respect and defend their right to think as they will or must. Over at least 4 decades, I watched and hoped for the compassion, that I learned only Jesus and a few others who really knew love could deliver. This expectation protects against bitterness, disappointment and unreasonable demands of those who seek to burden homosexuals.

I'm hopeful, yet not overly optimistic that many more will soon be more reasonable about homosexuals and homosexuality in general; it's just a matter of time, combined with the evolution of a given society.

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Re: I agree.

Post #9

Post by r~ »

I am honored to announce that I’ve been banned from Anti-Christ Central.com by the salemwitchweb.coven.—I mean Christianity.com.

To view my sins blasphemy, go to homo one stop - Post 1607 and down.

Note that I have the gift (curse?) of prophecy in that I predicted I would be silenced by the Pharisees. (Post 1610).

In seperation of church and state I noted that the Declaration of Independence carries the Spiritual authority of the Christian Commandments of “Love your neighbor as yourself”, and “Do not judge or persecute sins or sinners.”

This was evidently too much for the hypocrites that are agitating for an anti-gay amendment. Thus, they honored me by banning me. And I humbly accept that great honor.

Please pay special attention to the last paragraph in post 31 to bagget.

You might also be interested in Walk Away from Fundamentalism for support.

Peace
ItS
r~

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Re: I agree.

Post #10

Post by Goat »

r~ wrote:I am honored to announce that I’ve been banned from Anti-Christ Central.com by the salemwitchweb.coven.—I mean Christianity.com.

To view my sins blasphemy, go to homo one stop - Post 1607 and down.

Note that I have the gift (curse?) of prophecy in that I predicted I would be silenced by the Pharisees. (Post 1610).

In seperation of church and state I noted that the Declaration of Independence carries the Spiritual authority of the Christian Commandments of “Love your neighbor as yourself”, and “Do not judge or persecute sins or sinners.”

This was evidently too much for the hypocrites that are agitating for an anti-gay amendment. Thus, they honored me by banning me. And I humbly accept that great honor.

Please pay special attention to the last paragraph in post 31 to bagget.

You might also be interested in Walk Away from Fundamentalism for support.

Peace
ItS
r~
Some 'prophecies' are self fullfilling.

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