Jesus didnt carry his cross. Symon did

[Avoice]

If the writer of the book of Mathew is telling the truth when he said a man from Cyrene named Symon carried his cross then maybe it was Symon they crucified. Christians should find that very believable. After all they believe many have been martyrs for Jesus. So why not one more?
The writer doesn't say what Jesus was doing or where he was when Symon was suffering for your sins

[DB]

[Replying to post 1 by Avoice]

Avoice, you took one verse and made a whole theology of it, completely disregarding all the preceding and proceeding verses all around it? No one, either in the Bible, or throughout history, ever died in Simon's name. Plus, the whole point of dying for Jesus, to some degree, is because he died for us. Since Simon wasn't obedient to God, his death would have absolutely no merit, plus it was Jesus who was resurrected from the death of the cross, not Simon, so again, not even viable hypothetically?

I believe that both Simon & Jesus carried the cross. Each in separate intervals. One started, and the other finished, or this occurred several times. But, it is not an option to say that Simon died on the cross, for again, he never appears again throughout the Bible except for that one incident, ...one verse actually (same in 3 Gospels). Therefore, there is no theology, doctrine or precept surrounding Simon whatsoever.

[marco]

Avoice, you took one verse and made a whole theology of it, completely disregarding all the preceding and proceeding verses all around it?

But he's doing no more than tradition does, first of all giving us the name of some stranger, and often making him the father of two sons who became missionaries.

One would wonder why it was necessary for another person to assist the man who walked on water. Was Jesus concealing his latent strengths to emphasise he was indeed a son of man?

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 2 by DB]

I have enough reason to question it. First, why would they have someone else bear his cross?
And what about the odd narrative at the crucifixion? When it says Jesus saw his mother it doesn't say he was in the cross when he saw them.

Look at the following verses. If there was a period after the furst instance of the word
mary then it could easily be understood that there were only two women there. His mithers suster named Mary and Mary Magdalene. One of them is his mother Mary.

"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!. Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home."

No wonder why they said to Jesus that he was born of fornication. I bet Magdalene was his mother. She sure was interested in jesus' life. More than the one believed to be his mother. Magdalene was at the cave first -resurrection. And when jesus' supposed mother was told he had risen she didn't even get up. Something is very strange.

And how do you know simon who carried his cross was disobedient to God? Also, the book if Mathew never says Jesus carried his cross Only Simon

[DB]

[Replying to post 3 by marco]

Sorry marco, I'm unaware of the tradition that you're referring to i.e. stranger of two sons that became missionaries? Is that John & James, the sons of Zebedee?
...everyone is a stranger when they are first introduced into a narrative?

Serious Bible students do not take passages out of context, or correlate unrelated verses. But they do take the Bible as a whole, in order to understand the comprehensive meaning of a text. Despite that, throughout history, many have done the opposite, either for sincere but naive motives, or for ulterior motives. We don't entertain the latter's opinions.

Yes, Jesus did not deploy his potential ability to either, carry his cross, resist his arrest, confound the trial, or avoid his death. He had to suffer these things in order to fulfill the demands of the atonement, i.e. become the final sacrifice in order to abrogate the Levitical Law, which held us all guilty and condemned during its implementation.
The miracles that he performed were merely meant as signs to others, to confirm his divine calling (under the auspices of God). God would not permit him to use the powers that he gave him, for his own selfish purposes and conveniences.

[DB]

[Replying to post 4 by Avoice]

Jesus had a calling that he came to fulfill, the powers that were given to him from God, were not meant for his own convenient purposes, they were meant to testify as to who had sent him, and as to who's will he was obeying.
His passion was necessary to exhibit his obedience to God, to lighten the burden in any way would be to circumvent the sacrificial nature of his calling. Where there is no loss, there is no sacrifice. Of course the death was the main point, but the mission encompasses the whole process. For even the mockeries from the surrounding people that he suffered, served as an indictment against man, and has a profound significance to the atonement. His suffering in all aspects was necessary, as was the restriction to use his powers to exalt God, not himself.

Because you isolated the passages about Mary to just the passion narrative, you completely missed all the other information that defines exactly which Mary was which. Even a superficial reading of the NT would never lead to the mistake that you made? ...I explained in another post to you of the interchangeability of certain names in the Bible (Levi-Matthew, Saul-Paul, Joseph-Joses, BarJesus-Elymas, Jude-Judas, Simon-Peter-Cephas, etc..)


Mark 6:3
6:3. "Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! Isn't this the carpenter?
Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Matthew 13:55
13:55. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

Matthew 27:56
27:56. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

Mark 15:40-40
15:40. Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.

Mark 15:47-47
15:47. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.

Mark 16:1-1
16:1. When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body.

Luke 24:10
24:10. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.

John 19:25-27
19:25. Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27. and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 2 by DB]

I have enough reason to question it. First, why would they have someone else bear his cross?

Perhaps if He could not physically bear that cross, Himself.

Or even if He was struggling and someone could help.

Remember, the Christ had been beaten and flogged, He was sleep deprived (had been up all night before His arrest, then was taken and questioned and beaten)... and He was a physically small man to begin with (small enough to be able to ride on the foal of a donkey).

And what about the odd narrative at the crucifixion? When it says Jesus saw his mother it doesn't say he was in the cross when he saw them.

It does. The verses before and after that verse show that He had been crucified and was on the cross when He spoke those words to His mother and to the disciple He loved.

Verse 18 - 20:

There they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and [Jesus] in the middle. Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: [jesus] of nazareth, the king of the jews. Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where [Jesus] was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek

Verse 23:

When the soldiers crucified [Jesus], they took his clothes...


Verse 31-33

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with [Jesus], and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to [Jesus] and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.


Those are the verses preceding and following the verse in question.


He was indeed on the cross.


**


In addition, my Lord would not have allowed someone to die in his place. He came to give His life for us (not the other way around).

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. John 10:11

There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15:3


He protected His own (those whom the Father gave Him) and He would not have allowed someone to take His place.

From part of His prayer to His Father on the night He was arrested:

I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one. 12While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.


And at that arrest, He said to those who had come to arrest Him:

“So if you are looking for Me, let these men go.� 9This was to fulfill the word He had spoken: “I have not lost one of those You have given Me.�





Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Avoice]

[Replying to DB]

But Jesus didn't want to die. Your will not mine he told God. So he didnt die willingly. He dudnt offer himself. He did it begrudgingly. Doesn't sound like sacrificed at all. He was simply put to death against HIS will

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 5 by DB]

The final sacrifice in order to abrogate the Levitical Law?
What law dictates human sacrifice?

You obviously dont know the law. Sacrifices are only accepted in the place God chooses. He even tells us we don't get to choose. And you think Golgotha is acceptable. God told you that is unacceptable. Why do you insist on ignoring Gods laws on sacrifice? He said WHERE HE CHOOSES. And that was on the altar in the temple. OMG...you just refuse to listen to him. JESUS IS AN UNACCEPTABLE SACRIFICE. God deserves the best of everything. And you have a half naked man on a tree and think it is okay. Christians have a low opinion of God.

The miracles that he performed were to confirm his divine calling? Again, you arent listening to God are you? What dies he say about miracles? He allows people to perform them to test us to see if we will listen to another. Miracles mean nothing. It is very obvious that he knew what he was talking about. You are impressed by the miracles.

Go read what God has to say. He'll tell you that sacrifices are only for unintentional sins. Very few are unintentional. Im fairly certain that when you have done wrong you kbew it but did it it anyway. Sorry Jesus cant help you. Also when the third temple is built the messiah will offer a sacrifice for HIMSELF and also for the nation. WHAT? Yes, the sacrificial system will be reinstated. I thought jesus died once for all sins forever? Yeah...okay. And the Messiah offer a sin sacrifice for himself?? You believe the Messiah is sinless. And we were told the jews could be without a king or sacrificial for many days. But it coming back.

OMG...your whole sacrificial scene is disgusting. And jesus didnt offer himself. He didnt want to die remember? Not my will but yours he told God. An unwilling human sacrifice in a place called the skull outside of Jerusalem. Not acceptable in so many ways

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 6 by DB]

None of your passages prove which Mary was his mother