Jesus is God, made man

[PinSeeker]

For debate:

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The world and all natural things came into existence only through God:

• "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." [Genesis 1:1]
  
  "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God... For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things." [Romans 11:33-36]
  
  "seek God... He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist" [Acts 17:27-28]

Likewise, the world and all natural things came into existence through Christ Jesus:

• "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." [John 1:1-3]

Therefore, Jesus is also part of the One True God. He's just not God the Father.

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Only God is not in need of salvation, He IS our salvation:

• "The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold." [Psalm 18:2]
  
  "The LORD is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear? The LORD is the defense of my life; Whom shall I dread?" [Psalm 27:1]
  
  “Surely, the hills are a deception, A tumult on the mountains. Surely in the LORD our God Is the salvation of Israel." [Jeremiah 3:23]

Likewise, Jesus was not in need of salvation, but IS our salvation:

• "Jesus Christ... is the stone... which... became the chief corner stone. And there is salvation in no one else... by which we must be saved.â€� [Acts 4:10-12]
  
  "God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..." [1 Thessalonians 5:9]]

Therefore, Jesus is also part of the One True God. He's just not God the Father.

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Only God can give His Law, and only God can fulfill His law:

• "...God spoke all these words, saying, 'I am the LORD your God... showing lovingkindness... to those who love Me and keep My commandments." [Exodus 20:1-6, Deuteronomy 5:5-10]

Jesus both gave the Law and fulfilled it:

• “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." [John 14:15]
  
  "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.� [John 14:21]
  
  "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." [John 15:10]
  
  “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." [John 15:12]
  
  "You are My friends if you do what I command you." [John 15:14]
  
  "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." [Matthew 5:17]

Therefore, Jesus is also part of the One True God. He's just not God the Father.

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Only God can redeem any person, thereby saving him/her:

• "The LORD redeems the soul of His servants, And none of those who take refuge in Him will be condemned." [Psalm 34:22]
  
  "...when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law..." [Galatians 4:4-5]

Jesus redeemed/redeems the Elect:

• "...when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law..." [the pronoun 'His' refers to God, of course, but the pronoun 'He' refers to 'Son' (Jesus); Galatians 4:4-5]
  
  "...Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession..." [Titus 2:13-14]

Therefore, Jesus is also part of the One True God. He's just not God the Father.

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Only God is unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever:

• “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. Of old You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Even they will perish, but You endure; and all of them will wear out like a garment; like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end." [Psalm 102:24-27]

Likewise, Jesus is unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever:

• "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." [Hebrews 13:8]

Therefore, Jesus is also part of the One True God. He's just not God the Father.

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I gotta say, I really enjoyed doing that. Debate away.

[PinSeeker]

Pinseeker, when Jesus Christ was a human, the temple where Jehovah was worshiped was STILL in Jerusalem.

Not even sure what you're disputing here, Eloi. But Jesus, as He Himself said, IS the Temple.

When he healed some sick people, he told them to make offerings and directed them before Jehovah's priests who were serving in the temple.

Sure He did. But you're seeing that in a very... short-sighted... way.

Thank you for this, though because you just reminded me of something else quite unforgettable that I should have included in my original post:

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Only God can make the blind see, the deaf hear, and the lame leap for joy, and the mute speak:

• "Then Moses said to the LORD, 'Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.' The LORD said to him, 'Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?'" [Exodus 4:10-11]
  
  "The LORD opens the eyes of the blind; the LORD raises up those who are bowed down;" [Psalm 146:8]
  
  "Say to those with anxious heart, 'Take courage, fear not. Behold, your God will come with vengeance; the recompense of God will come, but He will save you.� Then the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame will leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute will shout for joy..." [Isaiah 35:4-6]

Likewise, Jesus heals the blind, deaf, mute, and lame:

• "As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, 'Have mercy on us, Son of David!' When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, 'Do you believe that I am able to do this?' They said to Him, 'Yes, Lord.' Then He touched their eyes, saying, 'It shall be done to you according to your faith.' And their eyes were opened." [Matthew 9:27-30]
  
  "Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw." [Matthew 12:22]
  
  "And large crowds came to Him, bringing with them those who were lame, crippled, blind, mute, and many others, and they laid them down at His feet; and He healed them. 31 So the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel." [Matthew 15:30-31]
  
  "At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. And He answered and said to them, 'Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the Gospel preached to them. Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.'" [Luke 7:21-23]
  
  "When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He said to him, 'Do you wish to get well?' The sick man answered Him, 'Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me.' Jesus said to him, 'Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.' Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk." [John 5:6-9]
  
  [John 9 in its entirety]

Therefore, Jesus is also a part of the One True God. He's just not God the Father.

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No follower of Jesus confused him with God...

Well, no one confused Him with God the Father. Neither do I.

If you lived in the time of Jesus Christ, even Jesus himself would have called you blasphemous.

If that were the case, then He would have been calling Himself blasphemous, so no, He wouldn't have. As it is, I very much look forward to the day when my faith is sight, and He says to me, "Well done, good and faithful servant." I hope that happens for you, too... and everyone reading these words.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Matthew 3:16 says the voice is of God.

And 2 Timothy 3:16 says every word of Scripture is from God Himself. As does Hebrews 1:1-2.

Grace and peace to you.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by PinSeeker]

[quote] Therefore, Jesus is also part of the One True God. He's just not God the Father [quote]

RESPONSE:

I'm afraid you've got a problem with that claim. If what you say were to be true, than Jesus is not "coequal" with the Father and there not part of the Trinity.

[myth-one.com]

The world and all natural things came into existence only through God:

• "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." [Genesis 1:1]
  
  "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God... For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things." [Romans 11:33-36]
  
  "seek God... He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist" [Acts 17:27-28]

Likewise, the world and all natural things came into existence through Christ Jesus:

• "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." [John 1:1-3]

Your conclusion that "the world and all natural things came into existence through Christ Jesus," is absolutely incorrect!

Christ Jesus is not even mentioned in those verses!

Jesus is not the Word.

Jesus was the Word made flesh.

The Word made flesh no longer exists.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 3 by Eloi]

Also....

Yes, Jesus was a creator of everything, after he himself was brought into existence by Jehovah, his Father and God (John 20:17). But does that make him God? Not any more than a jack-hammer is the man who is directing and using the tool.

Jesus created as Jehovah God Almighty directed him to create, and, using the creative power that was GIVEN to him by Jehovah.

John 20:17 reads (and I quote):

• "Jesus said to her, 'Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.''"

This is shortly after Jesus's resurrection. There is nothing here about anybody creating anything, much less God "creating" Jesus. And further, the act of creation, God says more than once, "Let us...", meaning God the Father was not the only Author of creation:

• “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind..." [Genesis 1:24]
  
  “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." [Genesis 1:26]

We can easily see the Holy Spirit was present (Genesis 1:2]. And Jesus claims elsewhere that He was there also [John 17:24].

Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say Jesus was created; rather we see that He always existed and is from everlasting to everlasting -- as is God the Father. And this is yet another example I should have included in my original post:

• "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, From everlasting even to everlasting." [1 Chronicles 16:36; Psalm 41:3, 90:2, 106.48]
  
  "He (Jesus, the Word) was in the beginning with God." [John 1:2, parenthetical clarification mine]
  
  "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." [Hebrews 13:8]

Now, Jesus does proceed from the Father, but He was not created by the Father:

• "Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God...' " [John 8;42]

As does the Holy Spirit:

• “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning." [John 15:26-27]

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

These two statements of yours are very contradictory:

"Jesus is not the Word."

"Jesus was the Word made flesh."

You refute the first yourself with the second.

The Word made flesh no longer exists.

LOL! Like Job, I know that my Redeemer liveth.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 1 by PinSeeker]

Therefore, Jesus is also part of the One True God. He's just not God the Father

RESPONSE:

I'm afraid you've got a problem with that claim. If what you say were to be true, than Jesus is not "coequal" with the Father and there not part of the Trinity.

Not at all. I understand that's your opinion, but it's incorrect.

Grace and peace to you, polonius.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 14 by myth-one.com]

According to the Bible, myth-one.com, all things DID come into being throughJesus (long before he came to Earth as "Jesus"). If you reject the Bible out-of-hand, then you wouldn't accept that, but the Bible says that everything that was made was made through him.

John 1:3

I Corinthians 8:6

Colossians 1:16,17

[myth-one.com]

These two statements of yours are very contradictory:

"Jesus is not the Word."

"Jesus was the Word made flesh."

There are two type of bodies:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

That is what makes these two beings different.

The Word is an immortal spiritual bodied being and cannot die.

The Word made flesh was the man Jesus Christ:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

Jesus was made as a natural flesh body for the specific purpose of dying:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus fulfilled that purpose and there is no longer any need for the man Jesus (the Word made flesh) to exist.

Dying once was sufficient.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 14 by myth-one.com]

According to the Bible, myth-one.com, all things DID come into being throughJesus (long before he came to Earth as "Jesus"). If you reject the Bible out-of-hand, then you wouldn't accept that, but the Bible says that everything that was made was made through him.

John 1:3

I Corinthians 8:6

Colossians 1:16,17

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You're equating the Word with Jesus.

That's equating a spirit with a man.

"Him" in these verses refers to the Word.

The Word created everything in the beginning.

The man Jesus came into existence a little over 2000 years ago.

No man existed in the beginning with God.