Titus 2:11-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Line 13. Anyone want to explain this away?
Clear declaration of Jesus as God
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Wootah
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Clear declaration of Jesus as God
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Tcg
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Re: Clear declaration of Jesus as God
Post #31We'll just wait and see if this presentation ends the argument. I suspect it won't.Eloi wrote: [Replying to Tcg]
You can see one of them right here:
John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’�
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
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Eloi
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Re: Clear declaration of Jesus as God
Post #32[Replying to Tcg]
And from your neutral point of view, very valuable to me, do you think this is a clear declaration of Jesus indicating that he is not God, or is not?
And from your neutral point of view, very valuable to me, do you think this is a clear declaration of Jesus indicating that he is not God, or is not?
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Tcg
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Re: Clear declaration of Jesus as God
Post #33It provides nothing to determine one way or the other. If it did, this endless argument amongst Christians wouldn't exist.Eloi wrote: [Replying to Tcg]
And from your neutral point of view, very valuable to me, do you think this is a clear declaration of Jesus indicating that he is not God, or is not?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Eloi
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Re: Clear declaration of Jesus as God
Post #34[Replying to Tcg]
Thanks for your opinion is always appreciated.
At least we see Jesus saying his Father is not only the God of his brothers, but also his own God, which is logical, since all are brothers, sons of the same Father, and God.
This he said, also when he was resurrected AND ALREADY IN HEAVEN:
Rev. 3:12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.
Thanks for your opinion is always appreciated.
At least we see Jesus saying his Father is not only the God of his brothers, but also his own God, which is logical, since all are brothers, sons of the same Father, and God.
This he said, also when he was resurrected AND ALREADY IN HEAVEN:
Rev. 3:12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.
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Tcg
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Re: Clear declaration of Jesus as God
Post #35As I stated before, all we need to do is wait and see if this reference ends the debate. I suspect it won't.Eloi wrote: [Replying to Tcg]
Thanks for your opinion is always appreciated.
At least we see Jesus saying his Father is not only the God of his brothers, but also his own God, which is logical, since all are brothers, sons of the same Father, and God.
This he said, also when he was resurrected AND ALREADY IN HEAVEN:
Rev. 3:12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Eloi
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Post #36
You suspect it .. I know it. The truth won't be clear for everybody ... Sometimes God lets the hearts of certain people remain hard as flint, and by extension their minds are dark like night ... and they cannot understand or see ... It is prophecy and prophecies are always fulfilled.
Not even scientists agree either, so this is not difficult to accept.
Not even scientists agree either, so this is not difficult to accept.
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Tcg
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Post #37
As is too often the case, you question the character of those who disagree with your opinion. In this case it is your fallback response given that you can't present conclusive evidence. We of course know this argument as an ad hominem. We, or at least some of us, also know that it is a logical fallacy.Eloi wrote: You suspect it .. I know it. The truth won't be clear for everybody ... Sometimes God lets the hearts of certain people remain hard as flint, and by extension their minds are dark like night ... and they cannot understand or see ... It is prophecy and prophecies are always fulfilled.
Not even scientists agree either, so this is not difficult to accept.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Eloi
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Post #38
Take it easy ... This is not a thread to make judgements about people who comment ... or I would tell you that is often the case with your comments to me.
Again to go back:
John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’�
You keep waiting
Again to go back:
John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’�
You keep waiting
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Tcg
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Post #39
Eloi wrote: Take it easy ... This is not a thread to make judgements about people who comment ...
And yet you make judgments about those who disagree with you. Yes, this thread was not created for that purpose and yet you use it to do so.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Eloi
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Post #40
Again, take it easy ... It is you who is using ad-hominen with me ... I didn't make any judgement of anyone; I just said what the Bible says about some people:
Matt. 13:10 So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?� 11 In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him, and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’
It is not even something that applies to certain false Christians, sometimes it happens even to real Christians:
Mark 8:17 Noting this, he said to them: “Why do YOU argue over your having no loaves? Do YOU not yet perceive and get the meaning? Do YOU have YOUR hearts dull of understanding? 18 ‘Though having eyes, do YOU not see; and though having ears, do YOU not hear?’ And do YOU not remember ...
Matt. 13:10 So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?� 11 In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him, and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’
It is not even something that applies to certain false Christians, sometimes it happens even to real Christians:
Mark 8:17 Noting this, he said to them: “Why do YOU argue over your having no loaves? Do YOU not yet perceive and get the meaning? Do YOU have YOUR hearts dull of understanding? 18 ‘Though having eyes, do YOU not see; and though having ears, do YOU not hear?’ And do YOU not remember ...
