Jesus' plan of salvation.

[Elijah John]

25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?� 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?� 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.� 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.�

Luke 10.25-28

And this.

Matthew 19.17b

17............... but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.�

Matthew 7.21

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. ...

And what is the will of our Heavenly Father? Is it not expressed in the "Law and the Prophets"?

And what is the "Law and the Prophets"?

According to Jesus, simply this:

36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?� 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.�

Or, to simplify even further:

Matthew 7.12

12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Notice the following.

The Synoptic Jesus does not mention the necessity of being "bloodwashed", or belief in the blood in order to be saved.

Paul does.

The Synpoptic Jesus celebrates the Law as a way to salvation.

Paul, by contrast, considers those who attempt to follow the Law to salvation, accursed.

The Synoptic Jesus does not claim to be the "only way" to God in these passages. The Johannine Jesus does.

For debate...Why don't John and Paul teach the same "plan of salvation" as does the Jesus of the Synoptics?

[myth-one.com]

Anyone (whosoever) believes in Jesus as his or her Savior will be saved (gain everlasting life). This is regardless of what else they believe.

AH!!! This is exactly the point I'm making here, myth-one. Can't we just accept that we believers disagree on some non-essential things (like exactly what happens when people die) and rest in the fact that Jesus Christ is our Savior? Can't we?

What happens when people die is not a non-essential thing.

The false goal of those believing the immortal soul myth is where one will spend their eternity which is forced upon them as a consequence of being born a human being.

If you are forced to live forever as an immortal soul, you must live somewhere! So Heaven is assigned as the goal of believers, while nonbelievers are condemned to eternal torment in hell.

The actual goal according to the Bible is the attainment of eternal life. It is not something we are born with:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:15)

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)

In general, mankind fears death. We treat our fear of death with the defense mechanism of denial. That is, we deny it. We say we will live forever, thus taking on godly characteristics. We are therefore the perfect victims for Satan's lie of, "Ye shall not surely die." It is what we want to believe.

If you believe the immortal soul myth, then the gift of eternal life is not a blessing, but a curse. It is an obvious curse to the nonbelievers because the myth has them burning in hell eternally.

It is a curse for the believers because of their fear and worry.

It is a curse to the Christian religion by making it a religion of fear and hatred rather than what it truly is: a religion of love and forgiveness!

The reward for believers is everlasting life.

But you believe all mankind is born with everlasting life.

Thus, you have believers and nonbelievers sharing the reward of the saved.

===============================================

To provide punishment for the nonbelievers the "bodily resurrection with incorruptible physical bodies" myth must then be created.

Nonbelievers can then suffer pain eternally.

But believers are no longer equal unto the angels -- as they are restricted once again by having physical bodies.

[center].
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And it just gets farther and farther separated from True Christianity.
===================================================

In actuality, the truth about what happens upon one's death is infinitely better than you have ever heard in any church or from any evangelist, and infinite is a word we cannot comprehend!

On a Public Broadcasting System television documentary regarding religions in general, one philosopher made a statement concerning Christianity, "Would it not be better if the unsaved simply died?"

Guess what? That is exactly what happens as written in the Bible. It is called the "second death." The second death awaits the unsaved. Unsaved humans who are cast into hell die their second death!

Here is a philosopher who may have a religion, or may be an atheist, but he sees the flaw in widespread Christian theology. The Bible discusses two deaths, the first death and the second death. The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

The second death discussed in the book of Revelation must also be the end of a life if it is a true death:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

An everlasting life of torment is not a second death!

Oh well, have a good night.

Stay warm. It's cold here.

[PinSeeker]

What happens when people die is not a non-essential thing.

It is not salvific... it has no bearing on whether we are saved or not. Thus, it is a "non-essential" -- non-essential to salvation. Now, this is not to say that it is not important to have a right understanding in this particular area; it is important, but it is non-essential to salvation.

But you believe all mankind is born with everlasting life.

No, I don't; I have never, ever said that. That is merely what you very wrongly foist upon me and others. I do, however, believe (because the Bible clearly teaches) that man is created with an eternal existence and will not be annihilated; God is not a murderer, as annihilists, though they don't mean to, mistakenly believe.

• An aside: Herein is the irony of what you are selling. You rightly say that God is love, and then say that eternal punishment is not not loving. But wiping someone from existence for eternity is not loving at all; in fact it would be the exact opposite of love -- total disregard... even murder. No, but God disciplines and punishes, even in this life, precisely because He loves, because He is love.. And such will be infinitely more the case after this world passes away... forever... eternally.

Back to the subject at hand: So, whether or not this existence will be one of life or not is the question for each one of us, and thus the decision that we do indeed have to make, one way or the other. We will each be given what our hearts desire. What annihilists refuse to understand (because they think they do understand) is that eternal death, as propagated and taught in the Bible, is not synonymous with eternal non-existence.

• One more aside: This torment is self-inflicted; it is their torment, not His torment. The eternal, concious torment of those who do not receive eternal life -- their worm that does not die -- is their anguish and regret at not having believed God when they had the chance to do so and thus be co-heirs of the kingdom with Christ. God does not torment in any way whatsoever, because He is not a sinner. Because He places eternal judgment on them does not then make Him a tormentor. The torment they suffer is of their own doing and thus self-inflicted.

Thus, you have believers and nonbelievers sharing the reward of the saved.

"Thus" nothing. Your premises are terribly wrong, and therefore your conclusions are wrong as a result. But this doesn't make you not a Christian, and it doesn't make you less of a Christian than any other Christian.

But the real point is, at the end of the day, whether you or I are right about what happens after one dies the physical (first) death has absolutely no bearing on whether we are saved or not. The only thing that is really effectual regarding salvation is whether or not one believes In Christ or not -- "whoever believes in Him" (John 3:16).

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

What happens when people die is not a non-essential thing.

It is not salvific... it has no bearing on whether we are saved or not. Thus, it is a "non-essential" -- non-essential to salvation. Now, this is not to say that it is not important to have a right understanding in this particular area; it is important, but it is non-essential to salvation.

Yes, it has no bearing on whether you or I are saved.

It does affect how many others might be saved.

How many people are kept from salvation because of the ridiculous contradictory teachings that is God is Love, while He also designed a system whereby most of humanity will be tormented eternally?

Really, is that the best He could do?

It's ridiculous and an oxymoron! If God is Love, then He did not design such a system.

That idea originated from Satan:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

It's a hard sell for Christianity -- and is why Christianity will fail in spreading the gospel to all the world.

But you believe all mankind is born with everlasting life.

No, I don't; I have never, ever said that. That is merely what you very wrongly foist upon me and others.

My apology, you do not believe that all mankind is born with everlasting life.

I do, however, believe (because the Bible clearly teaches) that man is created with an eternal existence . . .

So all mankind are born to exist eternally.

But all mankind is not born with everlasting life.

What's the difference between having everlasting life and having everlasting existence?

God is not a murderer, as annihilists, though they don't mean to, mistakenly believe.

Is existing in eternal torment better than being annihilated?

Herein is the irony of what you are selling. You rightly say that God is love, and then say that eternal punishment is not loving. But wiping someone from existence for eternity is not loving at all;

The reward of believers is everlasting life.

The reward of nonbelievers is everlasting death.

Each person will understand the choices and make their individual choice.

God will honor everyone's choice.

Essentially, it's a choice of participation or non-participation.

One can opt in or out of everlasting life.

But once in everlasting life, the exit door of death no longer exists. So choosing everlasting life should be considered with caution.

So, whether or not this existence will be one of life or not is the question for each one of us, and thus the decision that we do indeed have to make, one way or the other. We will each be given what our hearts desire. What annihilists refuse to understand (because they think they do understand) is that eternal death, as propagated and taught in the Bible, is not synonymous with eternal non-existence.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Since the dead know nothing, they might as well be annihilated.

Thus, you have believers and nonbelievers sharing the reward of the saved.

"Thus" nothing. Your premises are terribly wrong, and therefore your conclusions are wrong as a result.

You have believers existing forever.

You have nonbelievers existing forever.

Thus, you have everyone having the reward of the saved -- eternal existence.

But the real point is, at the end of the day, whether you or I are right about what happens after one dies the physical (first) death has absolutely no bearing on whether we are saved or not. The only thing that is really effectual regarding salvation is whether or not one believes In Christ or not -- "whoever believes in Him" (John 3:16).

Yes, whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life.

Whosoever does not believe in Him shall perish, and never have life again.

The wages of sin is death, and death is an everlasting punishment.

[PinSeeker]

Yes, it has no bearing on whether you or I are saved.

Thank you.

It does affect how many others might be saved.

No it doesn't. We are all saved (or not) the same way... repentance and belief, by faith.

How many people are kept from salvation because of the ridiculous contradictory teachings that is God is Love, while He also designed a system whereby most of humanity will be tormented eternally?

Again with the "tormenting" meme. Again, there is no physical (or mental) tormenting being done by anybody, much less God. I just told you that the torment the unsaved endure is an anguish of their own making and in and of themselves, anguish at their own foolish decision to reject God.

God gives them every chance to repent and believe, yet they chose to reject Him. And, so, God finally gives them over to exactly what they have chosen for themselves. In the same way, He does the same for those He saves -- gives them exactly what they have chosen. So there is no "contradiction." God saves some, and does not save others.

Just because He chooses some unto salvation and not others does not mean He loves some and is unloving to others, or that He loves the latter any less than He loves the former. The question is not, "Does He love someone or not?" or "Does He love this person more than that person?" but rather, because NONE OF US are deserving, "Does he choose to have mercy and compassion on you or not?" And this is His prerogative, because He is the Creator, the giver of life, and we are the created. Paul refers to Exodus 33 and Deuteronomy 13 and writes in Romans 9:

• "He says to Moses, 'I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

It's ridiculous and an oxymoron! If God is Love, then He did not design such a system.

In your opinion. You can argue that point with Moses and Paul, and thus God Himself. See above.

What's the difference between having everlasting life and having everlasting existence?

The former is with God's grace and all His blessings present. The latter is the total absence of grace and blessing, and only judgment and condemnation remain. The latter is a terrible existence, but existence it is.

Is existing in eternal torment better than being annihilated?

No, but it's everlasting; annihilation would be only a very fleeting punishment, if it could really be called punishment at all. Punishment is not punishment if one doesn't have to endure it. And, like I said of annihilation, God is not a murderer.

The reward of nonbelievers is everlasting death.

Absolutely true. But everlasting death is not a cessation of existence of the individual. It it were, God would be guilty of murder, which is a silly notion altogether.

Each person will understand the choices and make their individual choice.

Agree. Never said otherwise.

God will honor everyone's choice.

Agree. Never said otherwise.

Essentially, it's a choice of participation or non-participation.

Agree, but based on your previous statements, the way you mean that is erroneous.

One can opt in or out of everlasting life.

No one "opts out" of everlasting life. Many choose to remain in opposition to God. Now, in effect, they exclude themselves from eternal life, but they have no idea this is really what they are doing -- they know nothing, in the words of Ecclesiastes 9.

But once in everlasting life, the exit door of death no longer exists. So choosing everlasting life should be considered with caution.

With all due respect, I don't even understand this statement...

Since the dead know nothing, they might as well be annihilated.

No, the dead among us, those who are dead in their sin, have no knowledge of salvation, because they see no need for it. We've discussed this at length, and you apparently still misunderstand.

You have nonbelievers existing forever. Thus, you have everyone having the reward of the saved -- eternal existence.

I will... actually allow that... Yes, they see it as a reward, thus their choice, and then they quickly find out otherwise. Thus, their anguish and torment in and of themselves, as depicted graphically in Luke 16.

Yes, whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life. Whosoever does not believe in Him shall perish, and never have life again. The wages of sin is death, and death is an everlasting punishment.

Well, right. But they are sent away into everlasting judgment. This is their punishment, and they endure it -- consciously -- forever. This is the second death.

Yet again, grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

I just told you that the torment the unsaved endure is an anguish of their own making and in and of themselves, anguish at their own foolish decision to reject God.

So God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not be tormented forever due to anguishing over their decision to reject God, but shall live with God in the paradise of Heaven eternally. (PinSetter 3:16)

Did I get that right?

[PinSeeker]

Did I get that right?

Nope. Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

Again, there is no physical (or mental) tormenting being done by anybody, much less God. I just told you that the torment the unsaved endure is an anguish of their own making and in and of themselves, anguish at their own foolish decision to reject God.

You state that there is no physical or mental tormenting being done by anybody.

But in the next sentence you describe the torment being done to the unsaved.

Is it that you are not considering the unsaved as "anybody?"

The Bible states that those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death.

OK, you don't agree with that.

But if they do not die, I could understand them undergoing some torment.

Are you claiming that they will feel no pain?

[PinSeeker]

You state that there is no physical or mental tormenting being done by anybody. But in the next sentence you describe the torment being done to the unsaved.

No, I absolutely do not. Like I keep saying, your premises are all wrong, so your conclusions invariably follow suit. Further, no reasonable conversationalist, having fairly and thoughtfully considered my comments, would deduce the premises you come up with, and therefore would never reach the conclusions you do.

The Bible states that those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death. OK, you don't agree with that.

Of course I agree with that. I just don't agree with your far too literal and thus wooden understanding of what the lake of fire is and your understanding of the second death.

But if they do not die, I could understand them undergoing some torment.

Well, they die, but your idea of what experiencing second death is is... wrong. As I have been saying.

Are you claiming that they will feel no pain?

Well, no physical pain. But I would imagine they would feel great emotional pain, as in disappointment, abandonment, and sorrow. Much like Jesus on the cross, actually, Who was abandoned by the Father at the crucifixion -- thus His cry of obvious emotional pain, torment, sorrow, and anguish, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

. . ., whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life. Whosoever does not believe in Him shall perish, and never have life again. The wages of sin is death, and death is an everlasting punishment.

Well, right. But they are sent away into everlasting judgment. This is their punishment, and they endure it -- consciously -- forever. This is the second death.

Judgments reach a conclusion.

The conclusion for those facing God's great white throne judgment will be to have their names written or not written in the Book of Life.

So judgment is not everlasting, and it is not the punishment.

Punishments (if any) occur following judgments -- not during judgments.

Following the great white throne judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second death.

That is their punishment.

============================================

Like I keep saying, your premises are all wrong, so your conclusions invariably follow suit. Further, no reasonable conversationalist, having fairly and thoughtfully considered my comments, would deduce the premises you come up with, and therefore would never reach the conclusions you do.

Here are a few Bible verses:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (I John 2:25)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life... (Daniel 12:2)

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

I read those verses as they are, and believe what they state.

I don't have to reach any deductions, change any word's definition, or make any interpretations to believe the scriptures.

=========================================

Definition of Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

I do, however, believe (because the Bible clearly teaches) that man is created with an eternal existence and will not be annihilated; God is not a murderer, as annihilists, though they don't mean to, mistakenly believe.

Can you quote any Bible scripture which supports an eternal existence for non-believers?

[PinSeeker]

Can you quote any Bible scripture which supports an eternal existence for non-believers?

I have done so many times, myth-one. You can read back through our exchanges in this thread and elsewhere. The problem is that you misconstrue all of them in at least some small or large way, and you misunderstand what death really is in the Bible, and what the second death is. And you just don't want to believe it, and I can understand that, because it's a very hard truth to digest/accept.

God is very clear all through His Word. Death is not a wiping from existence. Just as Adam and Eve died (spiritually) as God said they would but were not wiped from existence in Genesis 3, so will it be for all of us, believer and unbeliever alike. The question that remains for each of us -- just like Adam and Eve and everyone since, except Jesus, because, being God Himself made man, He was never dead in sin and without sin altogether -- will we remain dead in our sin, or repent and believe and receive new spiritual life in Christ. If we remain dead in our sin, then after the first (physical) death and at the Judgment, we will be sent away -- remaining in our sin and in spiritual death (not wiped from existence) -- to a place where will will remain under God's righteous judgment, apart of God's grace and blessing, forever. This is the conclusion, which is everlasting -- it is permanent and will have no end. In the same way, the conclusion for believers is spiritual life, which is everlasting -- it is permanent and will have no end.

Now. Again, for the... well, I've lost count now, so I'll facetiously say thousandth time... we can agree to disagree and part gracefully.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.