Colossians 2:9

[Wootah]

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Can anyone explain how Jesus isn't God in this verse please?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 14 by Eloi]

I'm really only interested in the plain texts reading. Lately I find theology so blinding for what the words in the Bible say. Actually say.

Why would the Bible insist Jesus is the whole fullness of deity? Such a wierd phrasing.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 15 by tigger2]

Romans 8:9 ESV
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

So do we get filled by God or by Christ?

Why does Paul change from Spirit of God to Spirit of Christ? Seems like he thinks they are interchangeable or we can see Trinitarian teaching here. How many spirits are we filled with?

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 19 by Wootah]

Jesus, the jewish Messiah. Ha. Ohhhkay

Christians can have Jesus as their messiah. Apparently they'll accept anyone who doesn't do anything. Just as long as he promises he'll help them when they're dead.

No one is the Messiah until he does the work.

The Jews are waiting for the Messiah spoken of in the scriptures. Dont know what Christians have settled for. Some three headed God. Oh my God! Pagans!

[JehovahsWitness]

Why does Paul change from Spirit of God to Spirit of Christ? Seems like he thinks they are interchangeable or we can see Trinitarian teaching here. How many spirits are we filled with?

Because the entire discussion is about Christ's role in God's plan for Salvation.

ROMANS 8:3

What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son

It surely was not to because he wanted it understood they were both equal (since he speaks of the son being subject to the Father's direction)

Seems like he thinks they are interchangeable or we can see Trinitarian teaching here. How many spirits are we filled with?

Not at all because Paul NEVER speaks about the Father being subject to the Son's will.

[marco]

The Jews are waiting for the Messiah spoken of in the scriptures. Dont know what Christians have settled for. Some three headed God. Oh my God! Pagans!

To see ourselves as others see us! I must admit to some admiration for your courageous attempts to give the Israelites some importance. They wandered around for forty years until they discovered the compass. I think they have a very long wait ahead of them if they are still expecting a messiah. Did Muhammad not fill that vacancy?

But I agree with you that Jesus wasn't it. Nor was he Yahweh, or Yahweh's brother, cousin or son. It isn't clear who he thought he was.

[Elijah John]

But I agree with you that Jesus wasn't it. Nor was he Yahweh, or Yahweh's brother, cousin or son. It isn't clear who he thought he was.

He would have to have gone way outside of his own Jewish tradition to consider himself the second person of any "Trinity". That notion is and was foreign to Judaism. Doubtful Jesus believed in anything but Sh'ma, absolute monotheism. See Mark.

[Elijah John]

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Can anyone explain how Jesus isn't God in this verse please?

Sure. Jesus is simply a man completely filled with the Holy Spirit. We are all created in the image of God. In those who conform to the will of God, that image shines brightly. In Jesus, brightest.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 15 by tigger2]

Romans 8:9 ESV
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

So do we get filled by God or by Christ?

Why does Paul change from Spirit of God to Spirit of Christ? Seems like he thinks they are interchangeable or we can see Trinitarian teaching here. How many spirits are we filled with?

Good questions. Paul never really comes out and says directly "Christ is God" but by his usage of the term, he may as well have. Another example would be "for me to live is Christ..." Blasphemous and a violation of the first commandment unless Christ is indeed God. It seems that is what Paul believed but didn't quite have the courage to come out and say it. This is speculation, but perhaps he was afraid of running afoul of the Jewish authorities still, or still had hopes of converting large number of Jews by proclaiming a (compromised) form of monotheism. Or he wanted to have it both ways, as though he was saying "Christ is God, the Father is God, but I am still a good Jew."

And this is risky, Paul's theology that is. If he is wrong, he is leading people into idolatry. Idol worship, hero worship of a man. Considering what may be at stake, why do so many Christians accept his teaching without question? Why are you so certain that Paul gets it right?

[marco]

But I agree with you that Jesus wasn't it. Nor was he Yahweh, or Yahweh's brother, cousin or son. It isn't clear who he thought he was.

He would have to have gone way outside of his own Jewish tradition to consider himself the second person of any "Trinity". That notion is and was foreign to Judaism. Doubtful Jesus believed in anything but Sh'ma, absolute monotheism. See Mark.

It is certain that Jesus offered absolute obedience to God, nor did he ever claim co-equality. His reverence is obvious, and he directs his listeners to the Father, attributing his powers to God and even praying to God for assistance in carrying out some cure. When he said he was the Way - he meant he was the Way to the Father. In fact many preachers see themselves as offering a route to God. But in what sense could "the way to the Father" ever be the same as the Father?


Had Jesus been aware of the existence of the mysterious Trinity, he would have attempted an explanation, as he patiently did in other areas. Given the Trinity is a colossal piece of theology, it would have been absurd had Christ not mentioned it in some explanatory detail. He didn't.

[Overcomer]

Tigger wrote:

The trinitarian argument that Col. 2:9 proves that Jesus is God overlooks the common understanding of "fulness of ..." and "filled with ..." by those who used those common phrases in New Testament times. For example, the person who became "filled with Holy Spirit" (Eph. 5:18) was greatly influenced by that spirit, but he certainly did not become the Holy Spirit.

But the verse in Col. 2:9 doesn’t say that Jesus was filled with God. It says that “in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.� Jehovah’s Witnesses mistranslate the verse in their New World Translation (NWT) as “in him all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.� Here’s the problem with that: The Greek word for “Deity� is “theotetos� which doesn’t mean “divine quality�. It means “God’s essential deity�, that is, that which makes him God. That specific word is only used once in the New Testament – here in Col. 2:9 – and is used to describe only one being -- Jesus.
See here:

https://biblehub.com/greek/theote_tos_2320.htm

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... nt-Against

Secondly, the Greek word for “fullness� is “pleroma� and Greek scholars agree that it refers to “the state of being God� (Karl Grimm in J.H. Thayer, A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Zoncervan, 1963, p. 288) and “is as strong as possible: Deity, not only Divinity� (H.C.G.Moule, Studies in Colossians and Philemon, Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1977, p. 102). In fact, Benjamin B. Warfield says that, “the very deity of God, that which makes God God, in all its completeness� is embodied in Jesus.

So it doesn’t just mean “greatly influenced by someone� and isn’t a mere matter of Jesus being inspired as you suggest. It speaks to Christ’s essence. Can you name one reliable Greek scholar who says differently? See here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... nt-Against

https://www.biblehub.com/greek/2320.htm

Bottom line: “In him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form� means Jesus is God Incarnate.

Tigger wrote:

this fullness which is described in Col. 1:15-[19] is entirely related to Christ’s cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18). For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740, Zondervan, 1986. - See AT, CBW, NAB (especially 1991 ed.)

.

In Col. 2:10, when it speaks of believer’s having God’s fullness, the Greek word “pepleromenoi� is properly translated as “complete�. See here:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-10.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/peple_ro_menoi_4137.htm

So the verse is to be understood this way: In him you have been made complete. Therefore, it in no way suggests that people become God when we are blessed with God's fullness.

tigger wrote:

Yes, at Eph. 3:19 we actually see Paul expressing the thought "that you [Ephesian Christians] may be filled with all the fulness of God" - RSV, KJV, etc. And at Eph. 4:13 we find - "until we all attain ... to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" - RSV

The context of Eph. 3:19 is different from that of Col. 2:9. In Ephesians, Paul is talking about the infilling of the Holy Spirit which does not make a person divine or a deity. It’s reiterated in John 14:23 which talks of God making us his abode. See Rom. 8:9-11 as well. The phrase is similar, but not identical. It’s comparing apples and oranges when you attempt to make it say the same thing that Col. 2:9 says. It isn't talking about embodiment the way that Col. 2:9 is.

Tigger wrote:

The Bible tells us how essential to eternal life it is to know God and Jesus (John 17:3 and 2 Thess. 1:8, 9). Therefore, if one "knows" Jesus as God and "knows" God as three (or two) persons and such "knowledge" turns out to be false, then he is not on the road to eternal life!

Absolutely true! If you don’t recognize the Trinity and Jesus as the Second Person of the Trinity who came to earth as God Incarnate, then you are not on the road to eternal life. Following everything the Watchtower tells you to believe, say and do will not save you. The mere human beings who make up the Watchtower do not have the ability to save. Only the one true Christ saves and we must accept his gift of salvation if we wish to spend eternity with him.