My Lord and my God - Shema Trinity

[Wootah]

Thomas says, "My Lord and my God."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-28.htm

What did he mean to claim about Jesus?

[PinSeeker]

Is this your suggestion that it didn't yet exist?

Nope. The Holy Spirit existed in the beginning, with God the Father and God the Son. See Genesis 1 and John 1.

In any case, this passage at best only supports a duality. There is no evidence of a trinity in this passage.

In a certain way, I agree. But that would be very short-sighted of you.

You obviously agree by referring to other unrelated passages.

<chuckle> I obviously disagree by referring to other related passage. Must you continue to purposefully misconstrue everything I say? I mean, you can if you want, but it really paints you in a bad light. I wouldn't do that to myself, but to each his own, I guess...

Grace and peace to you, Tcg.

[PinSeeker]

Christ being of the same substance as God, did not claim he was God.

Ohhhhhh, but He did. He claimed for Himself the same Name that God the Father claimed for Himself, many times.

Grace and peace to you, brianbbs67.

[Tcg]

Is this your suggestion that it didn't yet exist?

Nope. The Holy Spirit existed in the beginning, with God the Father and God the Son. See Genesis 1 and John 1.

In any case, this passage at best only supports a duality. There is no evidence of a trinity in this passage.

In a certain way, I agree. But that would be very short-sighted of you.

It would be short-sighted of me to have you agree with me?

<chuckle>

If laughter were an argument, you'd have a point. It isn't of course.


Tcg

[Tcg]

Christ being of the same substance as God, did not claim he was God.

Ohhhhhh, but He did. He claimed for Himself the same Name that God the Father claimed for Himself, many times.

Even if this is true, you've got two persons squeezed into one God, not three. Once again, simply math proves your claim wrong.


Tcg

[tigger2]

Thomas says, "My Lord and my God."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-28.htm

What did he mean to claim about Jesus?

Some scholars have interpreted John 20:28 as merely “an exclamation of astonishment� by Thomas. And, although a few modern trinitarians would like us to believe that such exclamations as this are really only modern idioms and were not used in ancient times, that is simply untrue. For example, Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia (350-428 A.D.) was “an early Christian theologian, the most eminent representative of the so-called school of Antioch. .... he was held in great respect, and took part in several synods, with a reputation for orthodoxy that was never questioned.�

This respected Bishop of Mopsuestia was a very early trinitarian and a friend of John Chrysostom and of Cyril of Alexandria. - Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th ed., Vol. 22, p. 58. This highly-respected, very early trinitarian wrote, 1700 years ago, that Thomas’ statement at John 20:28 was “an exclamation of astonishment directed to God.� - p. 535, Vol. 3, Meyer’s Commentary on the New Testament (John), 1983, Hendrickson Pub.l

"Nominative of exclamation will not be used in direct address. It is a primitive use of the language where emotion overrides syntax: The emotional topic is exclaimed without any verb stated.

“Robertson points out that this is ‘a sort of interjectional nominative,’ something of an emotional outburst. The keys to identifying a nominative of exclamation are: (1) the lack of a verb (though one may be implied), (2) the obvious emotion of the author, and (3) the necessity of an exclamation point in translation. Sometimes ω is used with the nominative." - Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 60, Zondervan, 1996.

“Wallace does not point us to John 20:28 as a Nominative of exclamation, but I think it works best here, as is viewed by others also.

" ‘And Thomas EXCLAIMED, My Master, and My God,’ 20th Century New Testament.�
..................................................
Heinz Schmitz
Reader in Textual Criticism & New Testament Greek
North Carolina

Some other translations which show John 20:28 as an exclamation ("my Lord and my God!") : KJ21; AMP; AT; BYINGTON; CSB; CEB; CEV; DLNT; ERV; ESV; EXB; GW; GNT; HCSB; ISV; JB; PHILLIPS; LEB; TLB; MSG; MEV; MO; MOUNCE; NAB; NCV; NEB; NET; NIV; NJB; NKJV; NLT; NLV; NRSV; NTE; REB; RSV; TEV; WEB.

A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament by Zerwick and Grosvenor also shows that Thomas' outburst may be 'an exclamation.'

………………………………………

Another respondent comments on the Bishop’s teaching concerning John 20:28:

"In Gospel According to John by Brown, p 1026, he quotes Theodore of Mopsuestia as expressing his belief that Thomas' remarks were addressed in praise to the Father."

I haven’t had access to Gospel According to John by Brown so will leave it for you to find and verify. I assume he is referring to The Gospel According to John, Raymond E. Brown, (New York: Doubleday, 1970), but am not certain.

..................................
Footnote in The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text 1808:

John 20:28 "These words are usually understood as a confession. [Theodore] Beza says that they are an exclamation: q.d. 'My Lord! and my God!' how great is thy power! Eph. i. 19, 20. Whitby's Last Thoughts, 2d ed. p. 78." Newcome.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 15 by tigger2]

Your post should help anyone who wonders about what Thomas said to understand the reality of the situation. It was an exclamation, the likes of which people have uttered since time began. When a son takes the family car and smashes it into a tree, the father might say, "Oh my God!!"

Thomas knew very well that Jesus was not God. There is not another place in the Scriptures where any of the disciples ever said anything about Jesus being God Himself. In fact, after John recorded Thomas' exclamation, John wrote about Jesus:

"These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31)

If the disciples thought Jesus was God, this would have been an excellent time to state exactly that. Yet John did not.

[Wootah]

Thomas says, "My Lord and my God."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-28.htm

What did he mean to claim about Jesus?

Let's assume he was implying that Jesus was God. That adds up to two persons making up the Godhead, not three. It's simply math, not complex theology. Shema duality at best.


Tcg

Well let's agree on that and when we discuss the Spirit (coming soon) you can update this post.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 15 by tigger2]

Your post should help anyone who wonders about what Thomas said to understand the reality of the situation. It was an exclamation, the likes of which people have uttered since time began. When a son takes the family car and smashes it into a tree, the father might say, "Oh my God!!"

Thomas knew very well that Jesus was not God. There is not another place in the Scriptures where any of the disciples ever said anything about Jesus being God Himself. In fact, after John recorded Thomas' exclamation, John wrote about Jesus:

"These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31)

If the disciples thought Jesus was God, this would have been an excellent time to state exactly that. Yet John did not.

So you call it an exclamation, an exclamation of surprise I presume.

Isn't that blasphemy you are accusing an apostle of?

I've said 'My God' and 'Jesus' and whilst it can be a prayer the majority of the time for the majority of people in the majority of places it is blasphemy and it was for me.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 15 by tigger2]

So blasphemy is one explanation that is possible.

[Eloi]

[Replying to Wootah]

I would say a blasphemy could be calling God THREE when the Shemah, Jesus and all Scriptures explicitly say is ONE.