How do they KNOW?

[Elijah John]

There is scant evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was sinless and perfect. By contrast, Jesus perfection is explicitly claimed by the authors of the Epistles.

For debate, how could they possibly know that Jesus was perfect, and never sinned in thought, word or deed? Were they witnesses to his mind? And to his every word and deed from childhood?

Isn't the claim that Jesus was perfect and sinless simply theological speculation?

[Tcg]

True Christians are not part of the world. I know what is right and wrong cause I learned it from the Word of God ... and in this part of the forum is the truth. Bye.

Every human being is part of the world. At least temporarily.

All parts of this forum are equally temporary.


Tcg

[Eloi]

The point to talk about here is this: the Scriptures say explicitly that Jesus was without sin.

John said that:

John 8:46 Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? 47 He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.�

1 John 3:5 YOU know too that that one was made manifest to take away [our] sins, and there is no sin in him.

Peter said that:

1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.

Paul said that:

2 Cor. 5:21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness.

... and here too:

Heb. 4:14 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.
... 7:26 For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

The Scriptures said that in the Hebrew part:

Is. 53:11 Because of his anguish, he will see and be satisfied.
By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant,
Will bring a righteous standing to many people,
And their errors he will bear.
12 For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many,
And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty

God approved Jesus acts:

Matt. 17:5 While he was yet speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and, look! a voice out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.�

Jehovah does not approve sinners.

Psal. 1:5 That is why the wicked ones will not stand up in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the assembly of righteous ones.

This is the topic here ... This is what the Scriptures say, and in this part of the forum is what really matters.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 25 by Elijah John]

Is your God is perfect? How would you know if He was?

We both agree that Jesus is not God.

Yes but I'm curious as to what your methodology in establishing perfection is. Is this methodology based on mere feelings or is it related in any way whatsoever to scriptural evidence? Thus my question, do you believe God "perfect" and if so how do you know?



JW

[brianbbs67]

"Righteousness" is a very relative thing in the atheistic "world".

Righteousness is a relative thing in the world. Theists pretend otherwise.


Tcg

Problem here is, "Man's righteousness is like menstrual rags to the Lord"

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 41 by Eloi]

I think it is a good argument:

God approved Jesus acts:

Matt. 17:5 While he was yet speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and, look! a voice out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.�

Jehovah does not approve sinners.

But I have read this discourse and is not convinced that God do not approve sinners:

http://thelightuniversal.org/page75.html

When you have read this then I can point to this:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a12.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko12.htm

Something to think about?

I do not know what was going on at that time, but this seems more down to earth and real to me.

But I am not convinced of anything yet, so lets talk about things, and keep and open mind.

And Just for the record...I am a big sinner...but I have hope that God will forgive me...after all...I am just a human being...not God. I would like to be perfect and sinless but it seems impossible. But then again we have this man:



He makes me happy Maybe Jesus could learn something To be fair Jesus lived in another time, so...but what a great conversation they could have had.

Now I have become drunk and who would I be if I did not put this on:





Best regard or namaste

[PinSeeker]

Hey, Waterfall, I have been following and would like to respond if you will allow. But before I do that, let me thank you for your thoughtfulness and humility. Read on...

[Replying to post 41 by Eloi]

I think it is a good argument:

God approved Jesus acts:

Matt. 17:5 While he was yet speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and, look! a voice out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.�

Jehovah does not approve sinners.

But I have read this discourse and is not convinced that God do not approve sinners:

http://thelightuniversal.org/page75.html

When you have read this then I can point to this:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a12.htm

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-ko12.htm

Something to think about?

Sure it is. But God is very clear in His Word that He does not tolerate sin.

But I am not convinced of anything yet, so lets talk about things, and keep and open mind.

This is much appreciated.

And Just for the record...I am a big sinner...

Yes, you are, as am I. The fact that you acknowledge that is a really good sign...

...but I have hope that God will forgive me...after all...I am just a human being...not God.

Again, a great sign that you acknowledge this and that this is your hope. God is also very clear in His word that if you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive.

I would like to be perfect and sinless but it seems impossible.

Right, well, in this life, it is impossible. This is why continued confession of and repentance from sin and the ongoing help of the Holy Spirit is very important.

But then again we have this man:



He makes me happy Maybe Jesus could learn something To be fair Jesus lived in another time, so...

I understand. Paul speaks to this, actually, saying, "the time will come when (people) will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

...but what a great conversation they could have had.

For sure. It probably would have been very much like Jesus's conversation with Nicademus, recorded in John 3.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 45 by PinSeeker]

Hey PinSeeker

I hope that we can have a good conversation about this discourse:

http://thelightuniversal.org/page75.html

Maybe we should begin with this:

What must therefore be proven is that the nature of Jesus was not entirely without blemish.


In Matthew 8: 21-22, for example, it is written: “And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.� Would a perfect human being answer in this way? Should not a perfect man know that the loss of one’s father is cause for grief? Should he not be aware of the deep hurt he inflicts by such a reply to a request for leave to bid the last farewell to the earthly body of one’s father? But the answer given by Jesus also implies this: those who follow me not are spiritually dead, and therefore they are of no interest to me; if you wish to follow me, you must do as I do, turn from those who are not with us, who disagree with us. And although Jesus knew that the teaching he preached was far superior to Judaism, his reply was both unkind and filled with pride.

Matthew 12: 47-50 reads: “Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister, and mother.� Jesus says, in other words: “I care only about those who do my Father’s will, all others are of no consequence to me, even though they be my relatives.� What mother and brother would not feel wounded, would not feel distressed at hearing such words from a son and brother whom they surely loved deeply and sincerely themselves? Would not a perfect human being much sooner have sought to draw his own kin closer to him, even though they could not understand him or his relationship to the Heavenly Father? Would not a perfect human being have grieved constantly over his inability to lead his closest relatives in the path that he himself walked?

In Mark 11 it is told that one day when Jesus was hungry he looked for figs upon a fig tree, but found only leaves, “for the time of figs was not yet.� Jesus curses the tree—and it withers! Would a perfect human being curse a tree that in accordance with the laws of nature bears fruit at certain times, and thus is not to blame that it cannot refresh the seeker out of season? A purely human vexation at not finding anything that could satisfy his hunger lies behind Jesus’s curse. In truth a poor reason for a curse—if it is to be taken literally! 2

In a number of other passages in the Gospels, Jesus also emerges not without blemish. A perfect human being thus cannot become violent, embittered and intemperate, or use disparaging words about his fellow humans, as Jesus often did in anger. For example: “Ye hypocrites� (Matthew 15: 7; 22: 18; 23: 13-14 etc.), “whited sepulchres� (Matthew 23: 27), “Ye generation of vipers� (Matthew 23: 33), “for he is a liar, and the father of it.� (John 8: 44).

The personality of Jesus as described in the Gospels shows clearly that he was not a perfect, a sin-free human being. And even though allowance must be made for the fact that the Gospels were not put into writing until long after the death of Jesus, and therefore must be, and in fact are, inaccurate on many points, it should also be remembered that death reconciles and conceals so much. Faults are diminished and forgotten in the light of all the good and splendid things that were said or done by the departed one. And thus has it also happened with the memories of Jesus. The few who had joined course with him grieved deeply over the loss of their mentor. They sought to remember the good, the splendid and the kind, while the purely human, the unkind and the imperfect receded more and more from their memory. Still, it is not a faultless figure who emerges before us in the accounts of the Gospels; for however humble, loving, helpful and patient Jesus was in his earthly life, he was still truly a human being, a son of man, and thus could not possibly be free of sin in the world of sin and death in which he lived.

The comparison of Jesus with the unblemished offering is thus groundless, it holds not, for in no way can it be reconciled with the accounts in the Gospels.

How is a perfect and sinless human being?

It is not everybody who find Jesus to be perfect and sinless.

Are they wrong?

[PinSeeker]

Hope it doesn't bother you, but I'm going to split this up just a bit. I'll address the other part of your last post directly, but first:

How is a perfect and sinless human being?

I'm not sure I understand this question. Do you mean "How can there be a perfect sinless human being?" Or do you mean, "What does it mean to be a perfect and sinless human being?" The way you state your question is ambiguous. Either way, I guess, what seems to be the underlying thought behind that question is that no human being is perfect; we all have our flaws, and I don't disagree with that thought, but there is a very important difference between us and Jesus (not just because I say it, but because God's Word does), that He was and is 100% of God in addition to 100% man. So, whereas we are not able in all circumstances and situations to resist temptation, He did, even though He was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4). Yes, it's hard to wrap our human minds to fully grasp that, but we can choose to accept it. That's up to you, of course.

It is not everybody who find Jesus to be perfect and sinless.

I don't really understand this statement. I guess what you're saying is that not all people find Jesus to be sinless, without blemish. I understand that, but would you believe people who think and say that? Or would you believe God, who says (several times) the opposite, that He is perfect and sinless? If you believe people who say that, then would you also call God a liar?

Are they wrong?

Well, I believe God. So my answer, of course, would be yes. This leads us to the rest of your post, which I will address next.

[PinSeeker]

What must therefore be proven is that the nature of Jesus was not entirely without blemish.

Well, I would say that God has already proved that, and the life of Jesus testifies to that. But I will be glad to entertain this discourse.

In Matthew 8: 21-22, for example, it is written: “And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.� Would a perfect human being answer in this way? Should not a perfect man know that the loss of one’s father is cause for grief? Should he not be aware of the deep hurt he inflicts by such a reply to a request for leave to bid the last farewell to the earthly body of one’s father? But the answer given by Jesus also implies this: those who follow me not are spiritually dead, and therefore they are of no interest to me; if you wish to follow me, you must do as I do, turn from those who are not with us, who disagree with us. And although Jesus knew that the teaching he preached was far superior to Judaism, his reply was both unkind and filled with pride.

There is a lot said, here, and many leading questions asked. I could speak to each one -- and refute each -- but rather, I'll just reply with a question of my own. That is, is this line of reasoning not filled with pride, and indignation, and self-righteousness?

Aside from that, it is very important to read what is said immediately before and immediately after verses 21 and 22. Before:

"Then a scribe came and said to Him, 'Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.' Jesus said to him, 'The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.'"

So when what happens in verses 21 and 22 happens, the lesson to be learned is surely not pride bur rather the opposite, which is selflessness, as perfectly personified in Jesus..

And after:

"...there arose a great storm on the sea, so that the boat was being covered with the waves; but Jesus Himself was asleep. And they came to Him and woke Him, saying, 'Save us, Lord; we are perishing!' He said to them, 'Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?' Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm."

So, in view of verses 21 and 22, the lesson to be learned is that true comfort and security -- even in the midst of earthy trouble and sorrow -- can only be found in God, and in Jesus, who Himself is God in the flesh.

Matthew 12: 47-50 reads: “Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister, and mother.� Jesus says, in other words: “I care only about those who do my Father’s will, all others are of no consequence to me, even though they be my relatives.�

Absolutely not. Jesus says, rather, there is no partiality with God; He loves and values not one more than another, but rather all equally, kin or not.

What mother and brother would not feel wounded, would not feel distressed at hearing such words from a son and brother whom they surely loved deeply and sincerely themselves?

Would this not be prideful and self-indulging on the part of the mother and brother? I say it would.

Would not a perfect human being much sooner have sought to draw his own kin closer to him, even though they could not understand him or his relationship to the Heavenly Father?

Not at the expense of others and especially God, no. Jesus said the two greatest commandments, the ones that summed up the whole law, were (1) to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and (2) to love your neighbor -- everybody, not merely your blood relatives -- as yourself. He lived these commandments well... perfectly.

Would not a perfect human being have grieved constantly over his inability to lead his closest relatives in the path that he himself walked?

Who says He didn't? Grieving is not always outward. In John 11, we read that Jesus wept with Mary, His mother, in her sorrow over the death Lazarus, who had died. Obviously, He grieved; it is a very moving scene. But again, grieving is not always outward; it can surely be inward and unseen. I would say, too, that His sorrow was deeper than that; He was grieved by death itself, which is only a consequence of this fallen world, and by Mary's human frailty and her inability to fully grasp what we read in John 8:28, that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. But again, grieving is not always outward; it can surely be inward and unseen.

[PinSeeker]

In Mark 11 it is told that one day when Jesus was hungry he looked for figs upon a fig tree, but found only leaves, “for the time of figs was not yet.� Jesus curses the tree—and it withers! Would a perfect human being curse a tree that in accordance with the laws of nature bears fruit at certain times, and thus is not to blame that it cannot refresh the seeker out of season? A purely human vexation at not finding anything that could satisfy his hunger lies behind Jesus’s curse. In truth a poor reason for a curse—if it is to be taken literally!

A tree, Waterfall, is an inanimate object. Surely, it is part of God's creation, just like everything else, but it is not to be equated in importance with human beings, and therefore not to be loved in nearly the same way. Surely you would agree with that. Anyway, "Love God, and love your neighbor (other human beings)...", as in my post above. I'm being a little facetious here, but obviously, inanimate objects are not included in those commands. The lesson is concerning people, though. If people do not bear good fruit -- that is, the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control -- they will surely wither and die, but of course this will be their own doing, because they chose not to bear this fruit.