What is the church Christ founded?

[marco]

From Matthew 16 we have:

17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.



Discussion has taken place over what Christ meant here. It seems clear enough he was using a pun on Peter's name, a rock, when he was founding his earthly church on Peter's shoulders.


That would give authority to the RC Church which takes Peter as the first Pope.


However it is argued that Jesus meant that HE was the rock and he was founding his Church on himself, as rock. As the words stand, that seems a spurious interpretation.

So what do the words mean?

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 57 by marco]

I'll read it if you identify it for me. There's one written under the auspices of Alcoholics Anonymous. Do you have an author?

No, not the Alcoholics Anonymous one. I put the link in my previous post. Maybe it didn’t work. Here it is again:



The author is Bernard Basset

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 59 by tam]

Ironically, the RCC is not even listening to Peter: the RCC speaks of Peter (and the 'popes') as being the Chief Shepherd, whereas Peter states outright that Christ is the Chief Shepherd, and he never refers to himself in that role (nor does anyone else refer to him in that role).

Jesus Himself considers Peter His chief shepherd. He says to Peter, “Feed my sheep� and “I give to you the keys to the kingdom� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven� “He who listens to you, listens to me�. I’d consider that a pretty ringing endorsement for authority.

The RCC also calls the 'pope', 'Holy Father'. Come on now! That is what Christ calls HIS Father; that is what Christ calls God. (John 17:11)

Per usual, you misunderstand the Church’s teaching . . .

********

Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is “holy.� In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, “and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.� God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is “holy� (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called “holy� in Leviticus 10:17.

The Hebrew word for holy or holiness is kiddushin which literally means set apart or reserved for special purpose. The Jewish temple is set apart from other building because it is used for worship. Sabbath is also set apart from other days of the week because it is the day of rest or a day intended for the Lord.


After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other “holy ones� or “saints,� called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, “it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’�

Therefore, it is more than befitting we call the Pope Holy Father

https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-do-cath ... rinity-may

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 59 by tam]

Ironically, the RCC is not even listening to Peter: the RCC speaks of Peter (and the 'popes') as being the Chief Shepherd, whereas Peter states outright that Christ is the Chief Shepherd, and he never refers to himself in that role (nor does anyone else refer to him in that role).

Jesus Himself considers Peter His chief shepherd. He says to Peter, “Feed my sheep� and “I give to you the keys to the kingdom� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven� “He who listens to you, listens to me�. I’d consider that a pretty ringing endorsement for authority.

None of those things makes Peter the Chief Shepherd (and these things were said to more people than just Peter, as we have discussed on numerous occassions).

Christ is the Chief Shepherd. Peter himself says this! He says it outright. All you have done here is prove the truth of what I said: the RCC is not even listening to Peter.

The RCC also calls the 'pope', 'Holy Father'. Come on now! That is what Christ calls HIS Father; that is what Christ calls God. (John 17:11)

Per usual, you misunderstand the Church’s teaching . . .

I do not misunderstand the RCC teaching. I do not understand why people buy INTO their teaching. Not if they claim to be following Christ.


Christ called His Father in heaven, "Holy Father". He did not call anyone else "Holy Father". There is not one single example of anyone calling Peter 'holy father' in what is written (despite multiple opportunities for this to have been done). In fact, Christ specifically commanded His apostles to call no man on earth, father, for they all had one Father who is in heaven.

"And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."



Yet here the RCC teaches her members that Peter and other men on earth should be called Holy Father? Teaching the exact opposite of what Christ taught? And how many listen to these men instead of to Christ?


Luke 6:46







Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam]

I do not misunderstand the RCC teaching.

Clearly.

I do not understand why people buy INTO their teaching.

Because their teaching IS Christ’s teaching – Scripture, Tradition and history reveal this.

Christ called His Father in heaven, "Holy Father". He did not call anyone else "Holy Father".

But as I already posted there are numerous Scripture passages showing it perfectly fine to refer to things other than Jesus Himself as Holy. Scripture even shows us Christians called themselves and each other as “holy ones�.

****

To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is “holy.� In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, “and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.� God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is “holy� (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called “holy� in Leviticus 10:17.

The Hebrew word for holy or holiness is kiddushin which literally means set apart or reserved for special purpose. The Jewish temple is set apart from other building because it is used for worship. Sabbath is also set apart from other days of the week because it is the day of rest or a day intended for the Lord.


After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other “holy ones� or “saints,� called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, “it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’�

Therefore, it is more than befitting we call the Pope Holy Father

https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-do-cath ... ther-if-th...



[quotae] Christ specifically commanded His apostles to call no man on earth, father, for they all had one Father who is in heaven.

"And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven." [/quote]

Do you actually understand what that passage means? To understand it the way you are would actually make Jesus’ words contradicting Scripture. Since we know that isn’t possible, it must be your understanding that is in error . . .




Elisha cries, “My father, my father!� to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).

In Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to “our father Abraham,� or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of “our father Isaac.�

Jesus is not forbidding us to call men “fathers� who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.

As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God.

Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual’s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into “gurus� is worldwide.

This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus’ day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a “cult of personality� around him—of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.

He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/call-no-man-father

here the RCC teaches her members that Peter and other men on earth should be called Holy Father? Teaching the exact opposite of what Christ taught?

As I showed above, it actually isn’t the opposite of what Christ taught. Your understanding of what Christ taught is incomplete.

And how many listen to these men instead of to Christ?

How many listen to Martin Luther, John Calvin, Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Billy Graham, George Fox, their own “inner light�, the “holy spirit� within, their “church of light�, their assembly, etc. instead of to Christ? People listen to that which is not from Christ all the time. But Jesus Himself told us we should listen to the Church He established. He gave her the keys and told her, “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�. He said, “He who hears you, hears me�. So, clearly, there was someone/s we were to hear. You need to find out who/what and actually heed Christ’s words to hear them, because it is He not me who said to hear them, is to hear Him. Let’s not ignore Christ’s own words in order to justify our own.

[Yusef]

[Replying to post 65 by PinSeeker]

Not only for the divinity of Jesus[pbuh]!

Indeed we assume these dears[JWs] have wrong belief of the trinity like to you catholics/protestants/mormons... and other astray too.

But they believe in the Bada'!

For that reason i enjoyed their beliefs!

Do you believe in Bada' too!?
Nope.

[Yusef]

Last night i researched about branches of Christians and found Jehovah's Witnesses are the more true followers of Jesus Christ peace be upon him

That's her observant of you. What do you think is the church Jesus founded? (We have rules here about derailling a thread so maybe it's best I don't make a comment on that)




JW

Hi dear pure servant of God,
The true Church of Prophet Jesus[pbuh] is the same Church which teaches us things that you JWs carry most of them than other churches

How!?

Because

I assume i am one who has been born in a family that worship Prophet Jesus[pbuh]
Then i researched among all beliefs and saw a thread that shows Islam is 2 main division
Sunni
Shi'a
And Sunnies carry the predictions of the Revelation as
Dragon/2 beasts/woman/Basra

And Shi'a carries the predictions
Woman/Sun/Moon/12 Imam

Revelation/12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.
Qur'an/16:43
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask [Ahl-Al-Zikr]the people of the message if you do not know.
Shi'a/Hadith
These AhluzZikr in the Qur'an 16:43 are we 12 Imams of Shi'a
Barnabas/220:20
And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammed, the messenger of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's law.'
John/16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth
My Analyze:
Everything → Encoder[God] → The Holy Books
The Books → Decoder[Ahl-ul-Bayit] → Ahadith of Shi'a
Ahadith → Detectors[Doers/Scientists] → Everything
Ref: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 234#906234

Therefore i understood that these 12 Imams are the children of woman whom testimony of Jesus and Decoders of all holy books God Has Sent!

Then put Shi'a as The Criterion/Axle

And realized that JWs is the nearest church to doctrines of Prophet Jesus[pbuh]
To this easily

[PinSeeker]

The trinity is a God dishonoring lie devised to dupe the scripturally uninstructed, totally foreign to scriptural tradition.

And I, along with all of orthodox Christianity through the centuries -- and, infinitely more importantly, Scripture itself and thus God -- pronounce this statement as God-dishonoring lie absolutely contrary to God's own word and His glory. So there we are, right? Now, I don't think this is "devised" by Jehovah's Witnesses, but rather a... well, to put it nicely... a terrible misunderstanding. I think we agree on who the father of lies is.

My view is that the church Christ founded was that of a body of spirit anointed believers that would accept him (Christ) as the promised Messiah. The word "church" originally didn't refer to the building but rather to the PEOPLE that hold to a particular faith.

Wholeheartedly agree.

But herein is the problem. You acknowledge that Christ founded the His Church, and I commend you for that. But only God is qualified to do that -- just as only God is qualified to justify, only God is qualified to forgive sin, only God is qualified to call, only God is qualified to... You get the point. Only God, the great I AM, never changes, and the same is said of Jesus in Hebrews 13 -- which also says that Jesus sanctifies (sets apart, makes holy), which only God can do. And on and on, including the following:

• "...faith (is) not of yourselves (but rather) the gift of God..."

... set side by side with:

• "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith..."

Only God can do these things, but yet here is God, in His Word, saying over and over again and showing by example in Scripture that Jesus can, too. Jesus is every bit as much God as God the Father. He and the Father are one, and in like manner, Jesus announces several times the oneness with the Father and the Son of the coming Spirit, Who He undeniably refers to as a third distinct person.

Finally, two things:

• 1. John 1 does NOT say, "the Word was a God," as Jehovah's Witnesses claim (this is an attempted corruption of God's Word), but rather "the word was God" (emphasis added in both instances).
  
  2. Thomas's confession, recorded in John 20 (“My Lord and my God!� v.28), cannot be dismissed as a mere exclamation for at least two reasons:
  
  • * the conjunction 'and' equates Jesus and God, proclaiming the Lord Jesus to be God in the flesh
    
    * if it were a mere exclamation, Thomas would be breaking the third commandment (taking the name of God in vain), for which Jesus would surely have rebuked Thomas, or forgiven him of his sin... or at least not acknowledged what Thomas said by saying nothing.
  The Holy Spirit was obviously very intentional (of course) in His superintendence of the writing of all Scripture, these two instances included.

Throughout Scripture, from Genesis 1 forward, God the Father declares by edict, God the Son makes it possible in the universe and on earth by His atonement, and God the Holy Spirit executes. This is the work of the triune Godhead.

Now... let us return to the topic at hand.

Feel free. Grace and peace to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

Now... let us return to the topic at hand.

Feel free. Grace and peace to you.

Thank you. So...

My view is that the church Christ founded was that of a body of spirit anointed believers that would accept him (Christ) as the promised Messiah. The word "church" originally didn't refer to the building but rather to the PEOPLE that hold to a particular faith.

Wholeheartedly agree.

That's good to see. Yes, both Paul and the writer of Revelation spoke of the spirit anointed believers as Christs bride. And it is this "church" of which he (Christ) is the leader that was the original church of Christ.

The beauty of the bible is like a diamond, you can look at the same thing and from different angles you see different aspects of that thing... in this case, when highlighting their submission to Christ's headship this group is called his "bride" when speaking about their sharing his kingdom he calls them "these my brothers" (Mat 25) , when looking at the legal basis for their calling the same group are said to be under the "new covenant", when speaking about their obedience they are called a "little flock", the congregation/church of Christ, when speaking about the process of that calling he says they are "born again", when highlighting the biblical precedent they are called "the new Jerusalem" "the temple of God" ...

When depicting their future role they are simply called ... kings (Rev20:6).


JW

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 65 by PinSeeker]

Not only for the divinity of Jesus[pbuh]!

Indeed we assume these dears[JWs] have wrong belief of the trinity like to you catholics/protestants/mormons... and other astray too.

But they believe in the Bada'!

For that reason i enjoyed their beliefs!

Do you believe in Bada' too!?
Nope.

Forgive me, Yusef, but I cannot even come close to following what you're saying -- I have no idea what you are trying to say.

"Not only for the divinity of Jesus" is a sentence fragment; I have no idea what you mean by this.

Likewise, "we assume these dears[JWs] have wrong belief of the trinity like to you catholics/protestants/mormons... and other astray too" makes no sense to me.

And you say I don't believe in "Bada'"... Quite frankly, I have no idea what you're referring to. What is "Bada'?"

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

My view is that the church Christ founded was that of a body of spirit anointed believers that would accept him (Christ) as the promised Messiah. The word "church" originally didn't refer to the building but rather to the PEOPLE that hold to a particular faith.

Wholeheartedly agree.

That's good to see. Yes, both Paul and the writer of Revelation spoke of the spirit anointed believers as Christs bride. And it is this "church" of which he (Christ) is the leader that was the original church of Christ.

In other words, according to the teachings of the WTS, 99 plus % of the 8 million JW's worldwide are NOT the church, because they are NOT the bride, because they are NOT spirit-anointed.


How can a religion claim to be the church that Christ 'founded', when it also excludes 99 plus % of its members (exempting the governing body leaders of course ) from actually being that church?



I'm not sure those members fully grasp what this means: because 99-plus % of the 8 million JWs worldwide would therefore not be the brothers of Christ, nor would they be under the new covenant:

The beauty of the bible is like a diamond, you can look at the same thing and from different angles you see different aspects of that thing... in this case, when highlighting their submission to Christ's headship this group is called his "bride" when speaking about their sharing his kingdom he calls them "these my brothers" (Mat 25) , when looking at the legal basis for their calling the same group are said to be under the "new covenant",

***

when speaking about their obedience they are called a "little flock", the congregation/church of Christ, when speaking about the process of that calling he says they are "born again", when highlighting the biblical precedent they are called "the new Jerusalem" "the temple of God" ...

Interesting point here about the temple of God.

The WTS claims that the anointed are the temple of God (meaning they must be in that temple). The WTS also claims that the majority of her members are not the anointed, and so not the bride, and so not the new Jerusalem and so not the temple of God.

But the WTS also teaches that the majority of jws (the "non-anointed" members) are part of the great crowd (from Revelation 7).


But where is the Great Crowd shown to be?

That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple




Something worth thinking (and asking Christ) about, perhaps.




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, and may anyone who thirsts "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


(which water IS holy spirit - poured out from the LIFE - Christ Jaheshua, given to Him by His Father without end)



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy