What say you?
Also, if you don't see an option in the vote then add it in a comment.
If you don't trust the Bible, Where do you look for truth?
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2timothy316
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onewithhim
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Post #81
[Replying to post 58 by 2timothy316]
I often wonder, if there are REAL healers amongst us, why they don't empty all the hospitals on Earth of the sick, maimed and dying!
I often wonder, if there are REAL healers amongst us, why they don't empty all the hospitals on Earth of the sick, maimed and dying!
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2timothy316
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Post #82
And that's my point too OWH. If there really where Gifts as described in the Bible still around today, then they'd be famous and not infamous, like Benny Hinn.onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 58 by 2timothy316]
I often wonder, if there are REAL healers amongst us, why they don't empty all the hospitals on Earth of the sick, maimed and dying!
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RightReason
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Post #83
[Replying to onewithhim]
True.
********
Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter� (2 Thess. 2:15).
Jesus told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me� (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations� (Matt. 28:19).
The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you� (1 Cor. 11:2).
Fundamentalists say Jesus condemned tradition. They note that Jesus said, “And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?� (Matt. 15:3). Paul warned, “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ� (Col. 2:8). But these verses merely condemn erroneous human traditions, not truths which were handed down orally and entrusted to the Church by the apostles. These latter truths are part of what is known as apostolic tradition, which is to be distinguished from human traditions or customs.
Consider Matthew 15:6–9, which Fundamentalists and Evangelicals often use to defend their position: “So by these traditions of yours you have made God’s laws ineffectual. You hypocrites, it was a true prophecy that Isaiah made of you, when he said, ‘This people does me honor with its lips, but its heart is far from me. Their worship is in vain, for the doctrines they teach are the commandments of men.’� Look closely at what Jesus said.
He was not condemning all traditions. He condemned only those that made God’s word void.
Jesus did not condemn all traditions; he condemned only erroneous traditions, whether doctrines or practices, that undermined Christian truths. The rest, as the apostles taught, were to be obeyed.
How can we know which traditions are apostolic and which are merely human? The answer is the same as how we know which scriptures are apostolic and which are merely human—by listening to the magisterium or teaching authority of Christ’s Church. Without the Catholic Church’s teaching authority, we would not know with certainty which purported books of Scripture are authentic. If the Church revealed to us the canon of Scripture, it can also reveal to us the “canon of Tradition� by establishing which traditions have been passed down from the apostles. After all, the New Testament itself declares the Church to be “the pillar and foundation of the truth� (1 Tim. 3:15).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/scripture-and-tradition
Indeed. I don’t recall Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition saying we ought to follow some guy who will come around in the 1900’s, make false prophesies, and teach new things like soul sleep, the non existence of hell, and denial of the Trinity.
We are to receive truth via Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition (the Church) just as we have been instructed. Nothing else makes sense.
No other source than what?There is no other source for the truth.
Saint Paul said that we are not to trust "traditions" that differ with what he and the Apostles taught.
True.
********
Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter� (2 Thess. 2:15).
Jesus told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me� (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations� (Matt. 28:19).
The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you� (1 Cor. 11:2).
Fundamentalists say Jesus condemned tradition. They note that Jesus said, “And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?� (Matt. 15:3). Paul warned, “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ� (Col. 2:8). But these verses merely condemn erroneous human traditions, not truths which were handed down orally and entrusted to the Church by the apostles. These latter truths are part of what is known as apostolic tradition, which is to be distinguished from human traditions or customs.
Consider Matthew 15:6–9, which Fundamentalists and Evangelicals often use to defend their position: “So by these traditions of yours you have made God’s laws ineffectual. You hypocrites, it was a true prophecy that Isaiah made of you, when he said, ‘This people does me honor with its lips, but its heart is far from me. Their worship is in vain, for the doctrines they teach are the commandments of men.’� Look closely at what Jesus said.
He was not condemning all traditions. He condemned only those that made God’s word void.
Jesus did not condemn all traditions; he condemned only erroneous traditions, whether doctrines or practices, that undermined Christian truths. The rest, as the apostles taught, were to be obeyed.
How can we know which traditions are apostolic and which are merely human? The answer is the same as how we know which scriptures are apostolic and which are merely human—by listening to the magisterium or teaching authority of Christ’s Church. Without the Catholic Church’s teaching authority, we would not know with certainty which purported books of Scripture are authentic. If the Church revealed to us the canon of Scripture, it can also reveal to us the “canon of Tradition� by establishing which traditions have been passed down from the apostles. After all, the New Testament itself declares the Church to be “the pillar and foundation of the truth� (1 Tim. 3:15).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/scripture-and-tradition
Please provide an example of something you think the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to the teachings of Christ. I can’t wait to hear what you got.When we look at the traditions of the Tare-like institutions that have existed since the early second century, we can see that they differ very much from what Jesus and his disciples taught.
"Withdraw from every brother who is walking disorderly and not according to the tradition that you received from US." (2 Thessalonians 3:6)
Indeed. I don’t recall Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition saying we ought to follow some guy who will come around in the 1900’s, make false prophesies, and teach new things like soul sleep, the non existence of hell, and denial of the Trinity.
So, kinda like when He established His Church and said, “He who hears you, hears me�, right?Elijah John wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
What say you?
Also, if you don't see an option in the vote then add it in a comment.
Where do I look for truth? From God. If you consider the Bible your sole source of truth, isn't that making a god out of the Bible?
I wouldn't say so. We are just reading a message from God, as he inspired many men to write it. I don't know how that is making a god out of it.
You no what else is described as Truth? The Church. Many people skip the part of the Bible that tells us that.He said to Jehovah: "Your word is truth." (John 17:17)
Don’t you mean how do you receive the truth if through the Bible? Does the Bible audibly speak to you?Again, how do you receive the truth if not through the Bible? Is it a voice you hear?
We are to receive truth via Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition (the Church) just as we have been instructed. Nothing else makes sense.
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2timothy316
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Post #84
Miss it? There is nothing to miss. It first must be had to miss it. My whole life I have never seen men walking through a city healing the sick as they spread the Good News of God's Kingdom.RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 73 by 2timothy316]
Nope. Its not my time table I am looking at. In fact the Bible only say they will stop.
Yep, which His Church tells us Paul is talking about the consummation of all things and the end of the age. You miss it.
Um no there is not. I have yet to see anyone come up with one credible account. Meanwhile 6,316 are dying per hour. The evidence is overwhelmingly in the favor of that those gifts have come to an end.I just simply look at the world around me and not seeing anything that comes close the gifts Paul, Matthew, James, Peter etc had.
That’s too bad. Lots and lots of recorded testimony from your fellow Christians saying otherwise.
No reason to feel shame. Faith, Hope and love remain. The greatest of all is love. Which is still around and will never cease. I fear it is a shame that people think people like Benny Hinn are real.Again, that’s a shame.I have seen nothing the compares to what those men did in the first century to what is is trying to be sold today as 'gifts'.
Yes I completely agree with this scripture. Why are you not hearing and looking around to see there are no men with healing powers that have not been proven to be frauds. The evidence is there for all to see, except for those that close their eyes and close their ears. 6,316 dying per hour is my evidence, one person getting better from a disease that was a doctors misdiagnosis is not a miracle. Believing it's a miracle is not faith but credulity, which is "readiness or willingness to believe especially on slight or uncertain evidence".15For this people’s heart has grown callous; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16But blessed are your eyesbecause they see, and your ears because they hear.17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.… -Matthew 13:16
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/credulity
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brianbbs67
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Post #85
[Replying to post 70 by 2timothy316]
Tongues is languages, not gibberish and if no one can interpret , its false.
Tongues is languages, not gibberish and if no one can interpret , its false.
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2timothy316
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Post #86
If RR or anyone wants to prove that the gifts of the first century CE have not ended then they will have to produce one person that with zero training in other languages to start speaking in real languages. This would be a person that can speak English and then could suddenly speak Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Greek, Hebrew, etc with never having spoken them before. That's what happened in the 1st century yet I have never seen such a thing today.brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 70 by 2timothy316]
Tongues is languages, not gibberish and if no one can interpret , its false.
There is a disorder called, Foreign Accent Syndrome. This is not the same as speaking in tongues though. FAS is most often caused by damage to the brain caused by a stroke or traumatic brain injury. And yes, sometimes the person will start speaking in completely different language, but the person was already taught the other language. Their brain is just so damaged the language center of their brain is servery handicapped. This is not a miracle, in most cases its a sign that a person is critically ill and close to death.
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onewithhim
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Post #87
Yes, 2timothy.....everyone in the world would know these healers, and there would be no more sick people!2timothy316 wrote:And that's my point too OWH. If there really where Gifts as described in the Bible still around today, then they'd be famous and not infamous, like Benny Hinn.onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 58 by 2timothy316]
I often wonder, if there are REAL healers amongst us, why they don't empty all the hospitals on Earth of the sick, maimed and dying!
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brianbbs67
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Post #88
What about the casting out of demons? That still does happen. Christ alludes to it in his "Iknow you not you workers of lawlessness)2timothy316 wrote:If RR or anyone wants to prove that the gifts of the first century CE have not ended then they will have to produce one person that with zero training in other languages to start speaking in real languages. This would be a person that can speak English and then could suddenly speak Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Greek, Hebrew, etc with never having spoken them before. That's what happened in the 1st century yet I have never seen such a thing today.brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 70 by 2timothy316]
Tongues is languages, not gibberish and if no one can interpret , its false.
There is a disorder called, Foreign Accent Syndrome. This is not the same as speaking in tongues though. FAS is most often caused by damage to the brain caused by a stroke or traumatic brain injury. And yes, sometimes the person will start speaking in completely different language, but the person was already taught the other language. Their brain is just so damaged the language center of their brain is servery handicapped. This is not a miracle, in most cases its a sign that a person is critically ill and close to death.
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RightReason
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Post #89
[Replying to 2timothy316]
That could be the exact same line that skeptics and non believers use regarding the existence of God.
*****
Does God cause miracles today like the ones we see in the Acts of the Apostles?
Yes, he does. A simple Google search will bring up many accounts from around the world of Jesus’ name being invoked to raise people from the dead, miraculously multiply food and heal people of all kinds of afflictions. And unless one rejects out of hand the possibility of miracles, the evidence in many of these cases – though of course not all – is quite credible.
We know, too, of the plenteous accounts of miraculous healings in the biographies of the saints. We know that the ecclesial process of canonization relies on two miracles – stringently verified – as evidence of a person’s heavenly intercession. And we know that most canonization miracles involve miraculous healings.
Should we hope that God will miraculously cure everyone who is afflicted in body or soul?
Yes. But we should not expect it. Why not? For two reasons.
First, because God has not told us to expect it. Although Scripture tells us that God gave the Twelve – and hence their Successors – power and authority to heal the sick (Lk. 9:1; Matt. 10:1), and though we see multiple instances where signs and wonders accompany the disciples’ proclamation of Jesus Christ (Acts 4; Lk. 10:17-19), nevertheless, Scripture nowhere says or even implies that God will grant every petition for a miraculous sign.
In fact, Jesus refers to the generation that seeks for signs as “evil and adulterous� (Matt. 16:4), and says to those who command miracles but don’t do the Father’s will, “I never knew you.� (Matt. 7:22-23)
Scripture testifies that Jesus’s miracles, and the miracles that Christians perform in his name, serve one principal purpose: to offer evidence for Christ’s identity so as to catalyze people’s faith. (Acts 2:22, Acts 3:1-4:4; Jn. 5:36, 10: 25). Jesus claimed he was the Messiah (Matt. 16:17), the Son of God (Matt. 26:63-64), and even took for himself the holy name of God. (Jn. 8:51-58) If indeed we can’t accept the claims he makes by his words, claims that are extremely difficult to accept at face value, then we may believe when we see his extraordinary works. (Jn. 10:38)
What is the role of bishops in promoting healing?
It is central. As the Apostles received from Jesus the command to heal the sick, their successors carry on the apostolic charge. The sacraments are the ordinary means by which the Church fulfills this command. The Letter of James says:
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (Js. 5:14-15)
This is a Biblical warrant for the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick. This sacrament together with the Sacrament of Penance is known as a “sacrament of healing.� (see CCC, 1421) Whenever these are administered, they are so done by the authority of the Successors of the Apostles.
https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2019/0 ... ed-by-god/
Why are you not hearing and looking around to see there are no men with healing powers that have not been proven to be frauds. The evidence is there for all to see
That could be the exact same line that skeptics and non believers use regarding the existence of God.
*****
Does God cause miracles today like the ones we see in the Acts of the Apostles?
Yes, he does. A simple Google search will bring up many accounts from around the world of Jesus’ name being invoked to raise people from the dead, miraculously multiply food and heal people of all kinds of afflictions. And unless one rejects out of hand the possibility of miracles, the evidence in many of these cases – though of course not all – is quite credible.
We know, too, of the plenteous accounts of miraculous healings in the biographies of the saints. We know that the ecclesial process of canonization relies on two miracles – stringently verified – as evidence of a person’s heavenly intercession. And we know that most canonization miracles involve miraculous healings.
Should we hope that God will miraculously cure everyone who is afflicted in body or soul?
Yes. But we should not expect it. Why not? For two reasons.
First, because God has not told us to expect it. Although Scripture tells us that God gave the Twelve – and hence their Successors – power and authority to heal the sick (Lk. 9:1; Matt. 10:1), and though we see multiple instances where signs and wonders accompany the disciples’ proclamation of Jesus Christ (Acts 4; Lk. 10:17-19), nevertheless, Scripture nowhere says or even implies that God will grant every petition for a miraculous sign.
In fact, Jesus refers to the generation that seeks for signs as “evil and adulterous� (Matt. 16:4), and says to those who command miracles but don’t do the Father’s will, “I never knew you.� (Matt. 7:22-23)
Scripture testifies that Jesus’s miracles, and the miracles that Christians perform in his name, serve one principal purpose: to offer evidence for Christ’s identity so as to catalyze people’s faith. (Acts 2:22, Acts 3:1-4:4; Jn. 5:36, 10: 25). Jesus claimed he was the Messiah (Matt. 16:17), the Son of God (Matt. 26:63-64), and even took for himself the holy name of God. (Jn. 8:51-58) If indeed we can’t accept the claims he makes by his words, claims that are extremely difficult to accept at face value, then we may believe when we see his extraordinary works. (Jn. 10:38)
What is the role of bishops in promoting healing?
It is central. As the Apostles received from Jesus the command to heal the sick, their successors carry on the apostolic charge. The sacraments are the ordinary means by which the Church fulfills this command. The Letter of James says:
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (Js. 5:14-15)
This is a Biblical warrant for the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick. This sacrament together with the Sacrament of Penance is known as a “sacrament of healing.� (see CCC, 1421) Whenever these are administered, they are so done by the authority of the Successors of the Apostles.
https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2019/0 ... ed-by-god/
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RightReason
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Post #90
[Replying to post 87 by onewithhim]
Because there were no sick people when Jesus walked the earth? He healed them all?Yes, 2timothy.....everyone in the world would know these healers, and there would be no more sick people!
