What say you?
Also, if you don't see an option in the vote then add it in a comment.
If you don't trust the Bible, Where do you look for truth?
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2timothy316
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RightReason
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Post #51
[Replying to post 50 by 2timothy316]
Paul tells the Corinthians, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you� (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter� (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us� (2 Thess. 3:6).
To make sure that the apostolic tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also� (2 Tim. 2:2).
"Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." -1 timothy 3:15
"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it." –John 16:12
Also, keep in mind, the Church came before the Bible. It is the Church who compiled the Bible. Clearly, Christians relied on the Church and were expected to listen to the Church.
"He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.� -Luke 10:16
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" -Matthew 16:18-19
No problem . . .RightReason wrote:
We are called to look to Sacred Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition (the Church)
Sacred Scripture that says this please.
Paul tells the Corinthians, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you� (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter� (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us� (2 Thess. 3:6).
To make sure that the apostolic tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also� (2 Tim. 2:2).
"Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." -1 timothy 3:15
"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it." –John 16:12
Also, keep in mind, the Church came before the Bible. It is the Church who compiled the Bible. Clearly, Christians relied on the Church and were expected to listen to the Church.
"He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.� -Luke 10:16
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" -Matthew 16:18-19
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2timothy316
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Post #52
However, 1 Cor 13:8 says, "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with."RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 50 by 2timothy316]
No problem . . .RightReason wrote:
We are called to look to Sacred Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition (the Church)
Sacred Scripture that says this please.
Paul tells the Corinthians, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you� (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter� (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us� (2 Thess. 3:6).
To make sure that the apostolic tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also� (2 Tim. 2:2).
"Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these things 15so that, if I am delayed, you will know how each one must conduct himself in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." -1 timothy 3:15
We no longer see people prophesying, healing people with a touch of the hand or resurrection the of the dead. In fact the Bible says that only the quality of love will stay with the congregation. 2 Tim 3:16, 17 only recognizes scripture as 'inspired of God'.
This was said by Jesus before the Christian congregation was founded. Over the next few decades Jesus did tell him more. "However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come." John 16:13. This new information began to be reveled to them at Pentecost 33 CE. Acts 2:1-4."I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it." –John 16:12
This "much to tell" was not to some group hundreds of years later. It was specifically for those apostles he was speaking to and they received that information and they passed on that information in the way of the Holy Scriptures.
This is false. The scriptures were being copied and circulated as the Christian congregation was being formed. They had a Bible already, it was the Hebrew Scriptures which was around before even Jesus was born. The first century Christians where calling the writings of Paul, John, Matthew etc. scriptures before they were ultimately but together with the Hebrew Scriptures. It would be arrogant to think that their religion was the 'one that complied the Bible' taking credit for God's book. For some person to say they deserve some great honor because they said, 'hey, lets put these new scriptures in with the old all together in a book' is not that big of an accomplishment because the the newer scriptures were already widely accepted before they put it together.Also, keep in mind, the Church came before the Bible. It is the Church who compiled the Bible. Clearly, Christians relied on the Church and were expected to listen to the Church.
“Who are men saying the Son of man is?� They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.� He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?� Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.� In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did. Also, I say to you: You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave will not overpower it. (Matt 16:13-18)"He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.� -Luke 10:16
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" -Matthew 16:18-19
When Jesus said, 'you are Peter' Jesus was simply recognizing who Peter was just as Peter recognized who Jesus was. Jesus was referring back to himself as the rock and not Peter.
“You have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.� (Eph. 2:20)
Jesus is the rock the Christian congregation is founded.
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RightReason
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Post #53
[Replying to 2timothy316]
Your interpretation of these verses is illogical and tries to give a meaning to this text that is simply not there . . .
******
Unless the Bible clearly indicates such a state of affairs, we are to assume that the biblical model of Christianity and the Church is normative for all times.
13:8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
Paul is talking about the consummation of all things and the end of the age
13:9-10 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; [10] but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
Again, the “perfect� is the next life, being with God, enjoying His presence in heaven for eternity.
if these gifts were to cease, why would Paul spend the better part of three chapters (1 Cor 12-14) defining and elaborating upon them for use in the Church? Right in 14:1, he urges the Corinthians to “. . . strive for the spiritual gifts . . . � So how are we to accept this notion that Paul is speaking only to the first generation of Christians and to no others? Where does that premise lead us?
In fact, it destroys the authority of Holy Scripture because now we ourselves (in the final analysis) arbitrarily pick and choose what is “for us today� and what ceased in the early days of the Church. One simply can’t consistently interpret the Bible in such a fashion. Some dispensationalists — true to their own false premises — even go so far as to say that the Sermon on the Mount is not normative for Christians today, but rather, was intended for the Jews alone.
13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
I have always thought it obvious that this refers to the next life. This is the context of the “perfect� appearing. It’s not the Bible; it’s heaven! If the Bible alone was sufficient to make everything so clear, then why do the Protestants who appeal to it as the final authority . . . find themselves unable to reach common accord on a variety of issues? Their own history amply disproves the current thesis.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmst ... rfect.html
“Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good.� (1 Thess 5:19–21)
The Church has authenticated several private revelations – such as that of Lourdes and Fatima – and declared them worthy of veneration.
I could give example after example of healing and even resurrection of the dead that has occurred since the time of the Apostles, but I will just link this very recent one (as recent of last month July 2019 https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2 ... tification
The parallelism of “thou art Rock� and “on this rock I will build� shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name Rock.
Notice, our Lord says to St. Peter in Matthew 16:17-19:
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.�
Jesus uses the second person personal seven times in just three verses. The context is clearly one of Jesus communicating a unique authority to Peter.
Further, Jesus is portrayed as the builder of the Church, not the building. He said, “I will build my church.� Jesus is “the wise man who built his house upon the rock� (Matt. 7:24) in Matthew’s Gospel. Once again, it just does not fit the context to have Jesus building the Church upon himself. He’s building it upon Peter.
In Revelation 1:18, Jesus declares, “I have the keys of Death and Hades.� He then quotes this very text from Isaiah in Revelation 3:7:
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: “The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.�
No Christian would deny Jesus is the King who possesses the keys. Who does he give the keys to? Peter!
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... r-the-rock
However, 1 Cor 13:8 says, "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with."
Your interpretation of these verses is illogical and tries to give a meaning to this text that is simply not there . . .
******
Unless the Bible clearly indicates such a state of affairs, we are to assume that the biblical model of Christianity and the Church is normative for all times.
13:8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
Paul is talking about the consummation of all things and the end of the age
13:9-10 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; [10] but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
Again, the “perfect� is the next life, being with God, enjoying His presence in heaven for eternity.
if these gifts were to cease, why would Paul spend the better part of three chapters (1 Cor 12-14) defining and elaborating upon them for use in the Church? Right in 14:1, he urges the Corinthians to “. . . strive for the spiritual gifts . . . � So how are we to accept this notion that Paul is speaking only to the first generation of Christians and to no others? Where does that premise lead us?
In fact, it destroys the authority of Holy Scripture because now we ourselves (in the final analysis) arbitrarily pick and choose what is “for us today� and what ceased in the early days of the Church. One simply can’t consistently interpret the Bible in such a fashion. Some dispensationalists — true to their own false premises — even go so far as to say that the Sermon on the Mount is not normative for Christians today, but rather, was intended for the Jews alone.
13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
I have always thought it obvious that this refers to the next life. This is the context of the “perfect� appearing. It’s not the Bible; it’s heaven! If the Bible alone was sufficient to make everything so clear, then why do the Protestants who appeal to it as the final authority . . . find themselves unable to reach common accord on a variety of issues? Their own history amply disproves the current thesis.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmst ... rfect.html
Of course we do. I’m sorry that you are unaware of present day miracles. The Church is full of such examples . . .We no longer see people prophesying, healing people with a touch of the hand or resurrection the of the dead.
“Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good.� (1 Thess 5:19–21)
The Church has authenticated several private revelations – such as that of Lourdes and Fatima – and declared them worthy of veneration.
I could give example after example of healing and even resurrection of the dead that has occurred since the time of the Apostles, but I will just link this very recent one (as recent of last month July 2019 https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2 ... tification
That is illogical and NOT stated in Scripture itself. No where in Scripture does Jesus say, “He who hears you, hears me until the last of you dies, then my people no longer have to listen to the Church�Quote:
"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it." –John 16:12
This "much to tell" was not to some group hundreds of years later. It was specifically for those apostles he was speaking to and they received that information and they passed on that information in the way of the Holy Scriptures.
It is absolutely not false. The Bible, as we know it today, with the cannon that we all use today did not exist at the time Jesus established His Church. In fact, it is His Church who met and guided by the Holy Spirit decided what was to make the cut and what was not.Quote:
Also, keep in mind, the Church came before the Bible. It is the Church who compiled the Bible. Clearly, Christians relied on the Church and were expected to listen to the Church.
This is false.
Nope. Notice Jesus said to Simon, “Thou art Peter� Do you know what Peter meant? It means rock. Jesus renamed Peter rock and then proceeded to say, Thou art rock and upon this rock, I build my church. You get the pun, right? Proper exegesis shows Jesus was not referring to Himself as the rock, rather was referring to Peter.Quote:
"He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.� -Luke 10:16
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" -Matthew 16:18-19
“Who are men saying the Son of man is?� They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E•liʹjah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.� He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?� Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.� In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did. Also, I say to you: You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave will not overpower it. (Matt 16:13-18)
When Jesus said, 'you are Peter' Jesus was simply recognizing who Peter was just as Peter recognized who Jesus was. Jesus was referring back to himself as the rock and not Peter.
The parallelism of “thou art Rock� and “on this rock I will build� shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name Rock.
Notice, our Lord says to St. Peter in Matthew 16:17-19:
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.�
Jesus uses the second person personal seven times in just three verses. The context is clearly one of Jesus communicating a unique authority to Peter.
Further, Jesus is portrayed as the builder of the Church, not the building. He said, “I will build my church.� Jesus is “the wise man who built his house upon the rock� (Matt. 7:24) in Matthew’s Gospel. Once again, it just does not fit the context to have Jesus building the Church upon himself. He’s building it upon Peter.
In Revelation 1:18, Jesus declares, “I have the keys of Death and Hades.� He then quotes this very text from Isaiah in Revelation 3:7:
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: “The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.�
No Christian would deny Jesus is the King who possesses the keys. Who does he give the keys to? Peter!
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... r-the-rock
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2timothy316
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Post #54
I gave no interpretation with the text. It is as you see it. If someone sees it as 'illogical' then that person might want to re-evaluate their read comprehension skills.RightReason wrote: [Replying to 2timothy316]
However, 1 Cor 13:8 says, "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with."
Your interpretation of these verses is illogical and tries to give a meaning to this text that is simply not there . . .
If a person believes people are still healing blindness with a just a touch or resurrecting people from the dead I have a bridge I'd like to sell them. Just like these things God inspired knowledge has been 'done away with' as well, as the scripture says would happen.
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2timothy316
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Post #55
Keys yes, foundation of the truth that the Christian Congregation is built on, no. That is outright arrogance to suggest the congregation is built on any other man than Jesus Christ. And you're calling Eph 2:20 a lie, “You have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.�RightReason wrote:
No Christian would deny Jesus is the King who possesses the keys. Who does he give the keys to? Peter!
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... r-the-rock
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RightReason
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Post #56
[Replying to 2timothy316]
Huh? The one who holds the keys has authority. The keyholder opens and shuts. THAT is the point. Christ established His Church to which He gave power and authority and Scripture itself calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. So, that contradicts your very opinion.
Be careful! It's impossible to be more Christlike than Christ!
Keys yes, foundation of the truth that the Christian Congregation is built on, no.
Huh? The one who holds the keys has authority. The keyholder opens and shuts. THAT is the point. Christ established His Church to which He gave power and authority and Scripture itself calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. So, that contradicts your very opinion.
Be careful! It's impossible to be more Christlike than Christ!
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RightReason
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Post #57
[Replying to post 54 by 2timothy316]
19Afterward the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?� 20“Becauseyou have so little faith,� He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.� …-Matthew 17:20
He warned us against doubting Him. With God all things are possible.
That is sad to me when someone can call himself a Christian and not believe in miracles. I absolutely believe God intervenes in this world and that yes, He still performs miracles. I can’t imagine thinking/believing otherwise. I’ve seen it in my life, the lives of His Saints, the testimony of my fellow man, etc. He told us ask and ye shall receive. Are these not His words . . .If a person believes people are still healing blindness with a just a touch or resurrecting people from the dead I have a bridge I'd like to sell them.
19Afterward the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?� 20“Becauseyou have so little faith,� He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.� …-Matthew 17:20
He warned us against doubting Him. With God all things are possible.
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2timothy316
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Post #58
And I am saddened when a person calls himself a Christian and doesn't believe the Word of God. Yet the Bible predicted this as well. Romans 1:25 says, "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen."RightReason wrote: [Replying to post 54 by 2timothy316]
That is sad to me when someone can call himself a Christian and not believe in miracles.If a person believes people are still healing blindness with a just a touch or resurrecting people from the dead I have a bridge I'd like to sell them.
The focus on following men (the creature) is one of the things the Bible said would happen. These people curing the blind and raising the dead, it's not a televangelist you're speaking of is it? What have these 'healers' done except get rich off the poor and the sick? The world doesn't seem to be getting better for these so-called 'miracles' you speak of. The miracles in the first century brought thousands into the congregation. However, Gallup polls show a decline in attendance. That the Bible said the rivers beneath Babylon the Great would begin to dry up. To me, this decline is the actual miracle in that the Bible and not 'the church' is right yet again.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/232226/chu ... slide.aspx
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RightReason
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Post #59
[Replying to post 58 by 2timothy316]
“He who hears you, hears me�
“I give to you the keys to the kingdom, whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�
“Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven him, whose sins you retain they are retained�
The church is ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’
“If he should refuse to listen even to the church, consider him anathema�
“Truly, truly I say to you my body is real food and my blood is real drink. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you�
Me too.
You mean like these words . . .And I am saddened when a person calls himself a Christian and doesn't believe the Word of God.
“He who hears you, hears me�
“I give to you the keys to the kingdom, whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�
“Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven him, whose sins you retain they are retained�
The church is ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’
“If he should refuse to listen even to the church, consider him anathema�
“Truly, truly I say to you my body is real food and my blood is real drink. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you�
Me too.
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2timothy316
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Post #60
[Replying to post 59 by RightReason]
I mean 1 Cor 13:8 says, "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with." You don't believe this, nor do you believe Eph 2:20, “while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.�
The Keys have been given and the way to the kingdom as been opened. It was opened at Pentecost 33 CE when Jesus sent God's spirit. Read Acts chapter 2. Those gifts they received ended just as Eph 2:20 said they would.
I see you're still using eisegesis in your scripture reading. This is type of interpretation is still flawed and has not changed since the last time you tried using in a debate.
I mean 1 Cor 13:8 says, "But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with." You don't believe this, nor do you believe Eph 2:20, “while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.�
The Keys have been given and the way to the kingdom as been opened. It was opened at Pentecost 33 CE when Jesus sent God's spirit. Read Acts chapter 2. Those gifts they received ended just as Eph 2:20 said they would.
I see you're still using eisegesis in your scripture reading. This is type of interpretation is still flawed and has not changed since the last time you tried using in a debate.
