Jesus is God

[For_The_Kingdom]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

#1 is virtually undisputed. #2 is Biblical based on two immediate Scriptures..

a. 2 Corin 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

b. Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin".

Now, the idea is; if you replace Jesus' name in #2 with ANY other name in Heaven or on Earth, the proposition becomes false and the entire syllogism is false.

The conclusion is simple; in order to be God, you must be without sin..and to be without sin, you must be God. Jesus meets/met those requirements, therefore, Jesus is God.

Argument from John 14:1-9: Long story short, Jesus was constantly preaching/lecturing about "The Father this, The Father that"...until Philip finally said "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be good enough"...and Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that seeing him is the same has seeing the Father...but if the Father is on SUCH A HIGH PEDESTAL and is light years ahead of any other entity in Heaven or on Earth, how dare Jesus say "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

In other words, if the Father took on human form and made his dwelling among us on Earth, his form would be Jesus.

If the Father is God, and Jesus said to see him is to see the Father, then Jesus must also be God. This just follows logically.

Argument from Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.."

This is the same reasoning applied to Heb 4 (above). If God is the holiest of all holiest, how can any other being come close, must less be the "exact representation" of his being?

How can you be the "exact representation" of someone that is the epitome of holiness/righteousness...unless you yourself is also the epitome of holiness/righteousness?

Actually, you can sum up all three arguments as the "Argument from Perfection"..and of course, there are plenty of other "Trinity proof" Scriptures that I can throw in there, but I wanted to attack this from a different angel.

And lastly, as much as these arguments harmonize, they are all independent...so even if you manage to wiggle your way out of one...you still have to deal with the others.

Actually, there is no way out; Jesus is God, whether we like it or not.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 2 by brianbbs67]

Jesus didn't defer all honor to God.

Jesus:
I will that they also be with ME where I AM that they BEHOLD MY GLORY

[shnarkle]

Conversely, no law equals no sin.

Here again, I know what you mean, but it is vague enough that those who believe we can sin with impunity hear it differently. They see it as if the law is done away, therefore there is now no more sin. They see God's laws as arbitrary.

Its all about making yourself acceptable to God(the goal). Holy. That is how Christ could sum it up the way he and Hillel and others did. 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul.(the Shema, Duet 6:4+) 2. Do unto to others as you would have them do unto you. Love your neighbor as yourself. These encompass the Whole Law. They do not negate it. Common Hebrew thought at the time and today, in some respects.

This is the format for the Old Covenant, and there's nothing wrong with it other than the fact that it can't save anyone. In other words, the premise that there is anything we can do to make ourselves acceptable to God is false. Paul confirms this by his observations in Romans. To attempt to make our selves acceptable is to establish our own righteousness, or "walk after the flesh". Again, there's nothing wrong with doing the right thing, and keeping God's commandments as long as we keep in mind that we're not doing this in order to be acceptable in God's eyes.

Paul is pointing out that we're already acceptable in God's eyes through Christ. This is why we can rest in Christ. It is the faith of Christ that motivates us to keep God's commandments

The reason that they encompass all God's commands is, that if you are doing them and living them, the rest just magically falls into place because of your mindset. God's spirit will lead you on that journey. "draw nigh unto Me, and I will draw you nigh", YHVH.

Yes it is because of a mindset that God gives us. It is the Spirit that leads, and causes us to draw closer to God through Christ.

I don't think it's possible to emphasize this enough because so many people either get it wrong, or simply articulate the easy believes doctrines without knowing it.

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to post 406 by Tcg]

Doesn't have to be Joseph Smith. Anything could be another head. Why stop at three parts to the God. Four , five or more. Maybe there's more. If someone starts a religion that claims God has more heads then what? If people believe God has three heads they'll believe he has more won't they?

Anyone can say/believe anything. The question will always be; what reasons do we have to believe that X is true. If anyone has anything contrary to X being true, we'd love to hear it.

Until then..

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 2 by brianbbs67]

Jesus didn't defer all honor to God.

Jesus:
I will that they also be with ME where I AM that they BEHOLD MY GLORY

"Which Thou has given me" is how that ends.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 406 by Tcg]

Doesn't have to be Joseph Smith. Anything could be another head. Why stop at three parts to the God. Four , five or more. Maybe there's more. If someone starts a religion that claims God has more heads then what? If people believe God has three heads they'll believe he has more won't they?

Anyone can say/believe anything. The question will always be; what reasons do we have to believe that X is true. If anyone has anything contrary to X being true, we'd love to hear it.

Until then..

This thread now has more than 400 posts, so your particular "x is true" has been well debated.

There is therefore no "until then", for you have seen the various reasons given as to why your "x is true" was challenged with.

Back to square one, then, don't you think?

An exercise in futility, perhaps?

Is there not a better way?

Grace and peace to you.

[shnarkle]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..


1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

The "new creature" under the new covenant is also without sin. This is explicitly stated in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hebrews. It is God's purpose that the new covenant be so that his people keep his commandments, and to keep the commandments necessarily means that they are not being transgressed. They don't sin. They no longer have sin. Therefore your first premise becomes false when that happens. It also follows that if Jesus is God then so is everyone else that is without sin.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 6 by For_The_Kingdom]

You are using John as your witness to jesus' greatness?

Some witness. The very last words credited to John speaking were to his disciples. He asked them to go ask Jesus:

"Are you he that should come or do we look for another?"

The disciples went to Jesus and asked him the question.

Jesus didn't answer the question. Instead he starts rattling off about his miracles. Big deal !
Those mean nothing! Nothing? Yes, nothing. God has told us that he allows people to perform miracles or acts to test us. To see if we listen to another voice. So if his miracles impress you that that proves you don't listen to the right voice. For if you did your response would be
"You are right. Jesus didn't answer the question! Instead he spoke of things that are not to impress us"
He didn't answer John. Yet he did. Jesus knows that God said miracles mean nothing. This isn't the first time Jesus shows how knowledgeable his followers are. It's their lack of knowledge which has made him what he is. His reply shows this. He is able to NOT ANSWER the question yet appear to answer it to those who are foolish. So when he says that only the chosen hear him KNOW that he even makes a fool out of his followers with statement. Because they think he is talking about them.

Go ask any Christian about this narrative. Ask them if Jesus answered John. They'll tell you he answered him. Wow...look..he named all his miracles! It's a big deal to Christian's.
They may listen to 'the word'. But it's not Gods. If it was they wouldn't be so gullible. Those miracles...did you hear of the miracle? Read the miracle....listen to this miracle..miracles...the miracles! Means absolutely nothing. To those who listen to God.

So go ahead and ask a Christian if Jesus answered John.
Why, he did just by naming his miracles.

Christians listen to God?
John asked him a direct question.
An important question.

He didnt answer. But in his reply he proved how he has elevated himself. Like like he said. Wisdom is justified by their children.

[For_The_Kingdom]

This thread now has more than 400 posts, so your particular "x is true" has been well debated.

Well "debated" and well "refuted" are two different things. Wake me up when my "x is true" becomes well refuted.

Until then, I will take the dub.

There is therefore no "until then", for you have seen the various reasons given as to why your "x is true" was challenged with.

There is also a difference between various reasons, and various "GOOD/SOLID" reasons. Wake me up when someone comes forth with the latter.

Back to square one, then, don't you think?

An exercise in futility, perhaps?

Is there not a better way?

Grace and peace to you.

?

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 411 by brianbbs67]

What do you that the law was an excuse to fail? What makes you think one will fail at keeping the law?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 411 by brianbbs67]

What do you that the law was an excuse to fail? What makes you think one will fail at keeping the law?

I don't think the law allows for excuses. I don't think that one that tries to keep the law will keep failing, but if one does transgress we have the same recourse as God has always given mankind. Repent and be forgiven. It is a reoccuring theme in Tanakh and Torah. Christ Yeshua directed us to this by calling us away from tradition and back to God's law.

Personally, I have found the more I follow the law, the more I follow the law. Good begats good which begats blessing of which YHVH has bestowed many upon me.