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Not only is this completely nonsensical (would anyone ever say thieves "send themselves" to prison?), but also unbiblical, since the Bible unequivocally declares God to be a Judge, regularly "damning" people and "casting" them into pits and whatnot.God doesn't send people to Hell. People send themselves!
The Jewish viewpoint (I don't know Jester's viewpoint) is that God created Satan (or gave satan the Job) of providing bad choices, so that people may chose the Good.Greatest I Am wrote:Hi Jester
" It would infer that God purposely created Satan to be evil (otherwise, he would have had no choice but to be good). At this point, I still do not believe that we have ruled out the possibility that we humans, who were originally morally spotless, “dirtied” ourselves along the way.
You have confused me with this statement. You seem to imply that God did not create Satan to do evil. Please explain.
I have been discussing religion from an aggressive stance for some time now. I want to thank you for jogging my memory to the Love side of God. In the heat of my arguments, I tend to forget God's number one motivator. Love.
Regards
DL
The Jewish viewpoint (I don't know Jester's viewpoint) is that God created Satan (or gave Satan the Job) of providing bad choices, so that people may chose the Good.[/quote]Greatest I Am wrote:
Sorry about the delay. I've been a little busy as of late. I like the idea of sin and spirituality being a condition of the heart. I agree. But then only God knows the true condition of our hearts. I also believe this brings us back to "thought". As our thoughts are influenced by what's in our hearts. And then in the question of a baby's "condition of heart", I don't think God would find it in a condition of Sin. Like you say it's only conjecture, but then again so is anything that we posit. While you can find evidence that supports differing positions. Even the evidence is subject to change as new understandings and truths are discovered.At the very least, we need not worry over the issue of the word choice; it is a matter of the spiritual state of our hearts that is the issue. I am inclined to believe that a fetus begins with a positive state of heart, but feel that this is pure conjecture. The underlying point is that (while the two are usually very closely related) it is the condition of the heart, rather than a conscious moment of choice, that is God’s primary concern.
joer wrote:God be with you Jester,
If I may interject to both parties.At the very least, we need not worry over the issue of the word choice; it is a matter of that is the issue. I am inclined to believe that a fetus begins with a positive state of heart, but feel that this is pure conjecture. The underlying point is that (while the two are usually very closely related) it is the condition of the heart, rather than a conscious moment of choice, that is Sorry about the delay. I've been a little busy as of late. I like the idea of sin and spirituality being a condition of the heart. I agree. But then only God knows the true condition of our hearts. I also believe this brings us back to "thought". As our thoughts are influenced by what's in our hearts. And then in the question of a baby's "condition of heart", I don't think God would find it in a condition of Sin. Like you say it's only differing positions. Even the evidence is subject to change as new understandings and truths are discovered.
So if you rely on the logic and evidence of our "condition of being", it would seem to me that the most likely condition that a baby's heart is in at conception is "innocent". EXCEPT for the inherited genetic physical errors due to the retarded genetic development of human kind due to the Adamic default.
I mean since we have the capacity to understand this now, I don't see why we shouldn't express it as such.
First a quote I picked up somewhere " At the end of philosophy the only thing left to discuss will be the meaning of words".
We are there.
" word choice"
Word choice is extremely important in trying to make complex issues understood. Right.
"the spiritual state of our hearts"
The heart cannot reason, Only the mind can reason. Mind feeds the soul that is always in contact with the Holy Spirit and thus to God.
"God’s primary concern"
God is not concerned on our account. Things here are as they should be . God does not screw up. From Perfection can only come Perfection.
"conjecture, but then again so is anything that we posit. "
False. If you cannot find truth in here, Why are you here?
"For surely if Adam and Eve had followed God's Plan we would be born in a much more advanced state physically and most likely that would effect out spiritual potential."
Sounds like even mother nature is illogical here. I personally think she is OK. Further, the state of the mind has no bond to the state of the body. Ask Stephen Hawkins. Adam and Eve, being Perfect and making the right choice, launched us on our way, God's way.
"So in that sense we are not born with "Original Sin", BUT we are born with the consequences of "Original Sin".
Original Sin makes no sense. Sin has consequence by it's very nature. If this fetes or young babe should die, what penalty exactly would you have God impose on this sinner????
Regards
DL
What heart are we talking about? It’s not the physical heart which of course can’t reason. We are talking about the “heart” that actually represents body mind AND spirit. When we say “he plays with a lot of heart” or “she speaks with a lot of heart” Heart represents the character the presence the essence of a being. We are talking about the “complete” being. In this case body, mind and soul or spirit. So in this understanding The heart can reason and when we have “a lot of heart” it’s reasoning very well. Because “a lot of heart” means we are reaching the potential God created in us.The heart cannot reason, Only the mind can reason. Mind feeds the soul that is always in contact with the Holy Spirit and thus to God.
God is concerned. Why does God communicate through us, through the prophets, through Jesus, trough the Holy Spirit through answering your prayers? God is personal. And God loves and is concerned about us."God’s primary concern" God is not concerned on our account.
Not exactly. We still have to do our part in doing God’s Will. Perhaps you are content with all the error that is still within the world or you think it’s OK because eventually it will change. There’s an interesting thing about perfection…FREE WILL. God made us potentially perfect but for what ever reason God choose we must choose to be perfect even as God is perfect. So while in one sense you are absolutely right. In another you mustn’t forget OUR PART in perfection. We must do OUR PART, Or we are imperfect by choice.Things here are as they should be.
How does that help us improve our condition?God does not screw up. From Perfection can only come Perfection.
You can find truth here. But you have to realize it’s only true within our conceptual frame of reference. As we evolve conceptually the Truth we know also evolves. I’m here to tell you that. And to listen to the truths you discover on our eternal journey to becoming one with God."conjecture, but then again so is anything that we posit. "
False. If you cannot find truth in here, Why are you here?
Mother Nature is fine. We’re screwed up. Otherwise why would be so destructive of mother Nature instead of living in harmony with Mother Nature."For surely if Adam and Eve had followed God's Plan we would be born in a much more advanced state physically and most likely that would effect out spiritual potential."
Sounds like even mother nature is illogical here. I personally think she is OK.
False. They work together. One cannot exist without the other.Further, the state of the mind has no bond to the state of the body.
Ask Stephen Hawkins.
That’s a new one! I’ve never heard that twist on the story. I thought their “right choice” caused them tremendous hardship, and consequences of sin. You know loss of physical immortality, banishment from the paradise, make you living by the sweat of your brow. That sort of thing.Adam and Eve, being Perfect and making the right choice, launched us on our way, God's way.
Well I don’t know about that. It makes a lot of sense to me. What do you think about the world we are living in? War, death, destruction, disease, where the value of a dollar is worth more than the value of a life. I would call those consequences of choosing error over doing the Will of God. The story of Adam and Eve represents the beginning of that error and the story of Christ represents the end of it. BUT it still remains for us to choose. (FREE WILL)Original Sin makes no sense. Sin has consequence by it's very nature.
Well as I’ve been stating all along The baby is not a sinner and if it should die God will have a plan for it’s redemption. And when we die maybe we’ll get to see what it is. Right DL?If this fetes or young babe should die, what penalty exactly would you have God impose on this sinner.
Fair enough. I’ll get to my personal response momentarily, but am beginning to see where you’re coming from intellectually.Greatest I Am wrote:It would infer that God purposely created Satan to be evil (otherwise, he would have had no choice but to be good). At this point, I still do not believe that we have ruled out the possibility that we humans, who were originally morally spotless, “dirtied” ourselves along the way.
Yes, that is my belief. I cannot elaborate a great deal on this issue, but I’ll give it my best shot.Greatest I Am wrote:You have confused me with this statement. You seem to imply that God did not create Satan to do evil. Please explain.
I know what you mean there. It is so easy to be discussing one side of the truth to the point of missing the other. I’m caught doing it constantly.Greatest I Am wrote:I have been discussing religion from an aggressive stance for some time now. I want to thank you for jogging my memory to the Love side of God. In the heat of my arguments, I tend to forget God's number one motivator. Love.
