Would you still believe in God, if you found out that

[Elijah John]

Would you still believe in God if you discovered that Jesus is not God? If so, what form would that new found realization take? Would you then become a Jew? A Muslim? Or a free-lance, "heretical" Christian?, A Jehovah's Witness? Something else?

[RightReason]

[Replying to Elijah John]

RightReason wrote:


So, it changes. You kind of make it up as you go? How can you be sure you are getting it right?


You conveniently (deliberately?) omitted the part where I said if you are still unsure of my beliefs, they are summarized in my signature section.

I was not omitting or ignoring any of your comments. My response remains the same, even if they include your little personal creed. The point being, it is your personal creed. And like I said, how can you be sure you’re getting it right? The Bible has to be interpreted. And you wouldn’t even have the Bible were it not given to you by the Church. You trusted she had the authority to compile the Bible that you took from her, but did not take her authoritative interpretation along with it. The idea of that is mind boggling to me. You have also mentioned you accept some parts of the Bible, but not all of it. How odd? Why think/believe some is inspired and true and not all of it? How is that not reducing God’s word to what you personally feel like listening to and what you don’t?

since I discovered that the Church (and all Trinitarian churches) has been misleading people about the Divinity of Jesus

You are more enlightened than Christ’s Church? From where does your authority come?

Jesus is not God, there goes the Eucharist, right?

I could flip that on you. You can’t believe in the Real Presence because then well you might have to admit the divinity of Christ. When our theology begins with false assumptions it can lead us down a tangled web of inaccuracies.

srepresentation of my position by that important omission is dishonorable of you.

There was no omission on my part. It is my opinion that your theology is not supported by Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or even historical evidence. And that is what I was responding to.

why do you believe the Church? Please give a non-circular, reasoned answer. You seem to be appealing to the NT version of Jesus for the origin of Church authority, but also say that the NT itself is the product of the Church. That is circular reasoning.

As I have already stated believing in the Biblical God is a matter of faith and reason. No one can prove there is a God and that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. No one can prove the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. It requires faith. But I can use reason to bring me to this faith. I rely on historical accounts, eye witness accounts, testimony of my fellow man. I believe that a man named Jesus Christ existed and walked this earth over 2000 years ago. I believe He established His Church who He gave authority when He joined His father in heaven. He promised to remain with His Church. That’s in the same Bible you read. Only the Catholic Church can trace her roots back to the actual man Jesus Christ who established His Church and from where there has been an unbroken Apostolic succession ever since. If your church didn’t pop up until the 15th, 16th, 19th century well then we can rule it out.

We can have a long discussion about why I believe the Catholic Church is the one, true faith. Perhaps a topic for another thread. But in short, she meets the four marks that Scripture tells us Christ's Church must meet. She also typically stands alone in this day and age in defending life from the moment of conception until natural death. She does not cave to the fashions of the day and change her teachings when it suits her. When properly understood and lived the teachings of Christ's Church are wise and beautiful and true.

[Elijah John]

You have also mentioned you accept some parts of the Bible, but not all of it. How odd? Why think/believe some is inspired and true and not all of it? How is that not reducing God’s word to what you personally feel like listening to and what you don’t?

So, you accept all of the Bible? Is Exodus 21.20-21 Divinely inspired as well?

Is this passage from God?:

And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property

Is the notion that it is OK to keep and beat slaves half-to-death part of your Divinely inspired ethic? Are human beings property?

So if you claim to accept the Bible in it's entirety, you are obliged to defend this verse as well. Good luck.

You ask how can I accept only parts of the Bible. Here's how I see it. The Bible is not perfect. It is a mix of Divine inspiration and human bias. Do you suppose that God dictated it? Or that it fell in-tact from Heaven? You said in the past that you did not, so how can you accept the Bible as entirely Divinely inspired and perfect? Only God is perfect, not the Church, not the Bible. Those who hold that the Bible is perfect are making an idol out of it. And that would include the Council editors. Either they approved of that disgusting verse, or they overlooked it.

I believe the Golden Rule is from God. Permission to keep slaves and beat them half-to-death is not. It's as simple to separate the good from the bad in the Bible as to "pluck diamonds from a dunghill", in the words of Thomas Jefferson. Micah 6.6-6.8 is a Divine diamond. Exodus 21.20-21 is dung.

If a person does not use their God-given gift of Reason to sift though the Bible critically, and with discernment and instead let others interpret it for them, they are squandering that gift and surrendering it to those who could manipulate them. In extreme cases, that is how people fall victim to cults or get killed handling rattlesnakes.
.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 22 by Elijah John]

RightReason wrote:

You have also mentioned you accept some parts of the Bible, but not all of it. How odd? Why think/believe some is inspired and true and not all of it? How is that not reducing God’s word to what you personally feel like listening to and what you don’t?


So, you accept all of the Bible?

Yes.

Is Exodus 21.20-21 Divinely inspired as well?

Yes. Divinely Inspired does not mean everything in the Bible is a direct quote from God. You get that right? Divinely Inspired means God desired to reveal to us everything that is in the Bible. It is to our benefit to read and contemplate it all.

Is this passage from God?:


Quote:
And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property


Is the notion that it is OK to keep and beat slaves half-to-death part of your Divinely inspired ethic? Are human beings property?

You really don’t understand the Bible do you? You realize that passage is about Mosaic Law, who God gave His people because they demanded He do so. Do you know anything about the history of this time period? It was a very barbaric time. These Mosaic Laws were actually a step up from how the pagans behaved. That passage was actually attempting to show how slaves should be treated with dignity – how it was wrong to beat one’s slave and that that was something to stop doing. God’s people were held to a higher standard. So, yes, passages like that are important for us to see and hear. We learn that we are God’s chosen people and that Exodus is the journey of man. Slowly, God is taking baby steps with us, showing us how to become better – showing His people had to rise above the rest. How do you not see that?

So if you claim to accept the Bible in it's entirety, you are obliged to defend this verse as well. Good luck.

I not only defend it – I encourage it, because it shows how we human beings are stubborn and disobedient and ignorant and how we think we know better than God (without being rude, kind of like you are doing now in thinking you can choose which part of Sacred Scripture is inspired and which is not). It shows we have so much to learn and need to grow in our understanding of what is love and what God was calling us to. The OT is full of stories of man’s stupidity and God always chastising them and often punishing us because we are so thick headed. But notice what is rewarded in the OT – never slavery or stoning or cheating, etc. No, love, loyalty, doing the right thing are what is rewarded. Have you read the whole Bible?

You ask how can I accept only parts of the Bible. Here's how I see it. The Bible is not perfect.

Yes, it is. I think you just don’t get it.

It is a mix of Divine inspiration and human bias. Do you suppose that God dictated it? Or that it fell in-tact from Heaven? You said in the past that you did not, so how can you accept the Bible as entirely Divinely inspired and perfect?

Because it had the hand of God in it and God gave it to us for our benefit and I believe Him.

Those who hold that the Bible is perfect are making an idol out of it.

Nonsense. Are you familiar with the Ark of the Covenant? Were God’s people guilty of idolizing the Ark? No! They were commanded to build it and place certain items inside of it. It was treated with care and the utmost respect. To have viewed the Ark as just an ornate box would have offended God. It was not blasphemous to honor the Ark – it was demanded.

If a person does not use their God-given gift of Reason to sift though the Bible critically, and with discernment and instead let others interpret it for them, they are squandering that gift

I am afraid you do not understand Sacred Scripture. I stand by my comments that it is absolutely illogical to accept parts of the Bible and ignore others. That just does not logically follow. Please think about it.


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[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 23 by RightReason]

So, was Moses speaking for himself? Or was he speaking for God, under Divine inspiration? Did God also think it was OK to keep and beat slaves half-to-death because they were "property"? "Improvement" or not compared to pagan custom. Slavery is still slavery, and Moses, himself newly liberated, should have know that slavery is wrong. Do you see any irony here at all?

Do you think people are "property"? Is that what the RCC teaches? I doubt it.

That is just one instance where the Bible fails the perfection test. There are many, many more, as has been demonstrated on this site, time and time again.

[William]

Elijah John: So, was Moses speaking for himself? Or was he speaking for God, under Divine inspiration?

William: Moses was speaking in his capacity, for his GOD.

Elijah John: Did God also think it was OK to keep and beat slaves half-to-death because they were "property"? "Improvement" or not compared to pagan custom.

William: It was a time of transition, and this naturally 'takes time'.

Elijah John: Slavery is still slavery, and Moses, himself newly liberated, should have know that slavery is wrong.

William: In his capacity, Moses only knew that a certain type of slavery was 'wrong'.
Slaves help built societies faster. Moses was aware that the Kingdom of Egypt which the Israelite had been subject to, did not treat their slaves as well as they could.

If Moses was to condemn slavery outright, this would say that he thought what the Israelite's had helped the Egyptians build, was of no value. One has to remember that Moses was once connected to the top-brass Egyptians...and consider as well, of course, the "times" Moses was experiencing.

Today Kingdoms still build their empires on the back of slaves, although some have been given agreed amounts of money in exchange for this service to their Human Controllers.


Elijah John: Do you see any irony here at all?

William: I see irony in practically everything.

Elijah John: Do you think people are "property"? Is that what the RCC teaches? I doubt it.

William: Why should you doubt the obvious? That too, is irony.

Elijah John: That is just one instance where the Bible fails the perfection test. There are many, many more, as has been demonstrated on this site, time and time again.

William: So you argue for the "GOD is Perfect" forgetting that GOD is working with imperfection? That too, is irony.

Why would you think that someone like YVWV would deem it acceptable to work with Jews, and still be considered 'Perfect' under your own stipulations here, stipulations which we see time and time again demonstrated on this site.

You deny that YVWV would still be "perfect" if He were to deem it acceptable to work with Gentiles...tell us how that denial is acceptable?

[onewithhim]

I am sad that so many people don't seem to understand what the Bible is clearly telling them. Do they read it? or take their religious leader's word for it?

The Bible in the original languages has God's personal name within it 7,000 times. In Hebrew it is "YHWH." (The "W" is pronounced like a "V.") Though many Bible translations have taken the Divine Name OUT of the original text, quite a number of translations are putting it back. The King James Version let it remain in 4 places, for example at PSALM 83:18:

"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth."

So there is no doubt who God is. It is not Jesus or anybody else other than Jehovah.

Then we have instruction throughout the Bible as to the relationship between God/Jehovah and Jesus (His Son). JEHOVAH always is in a superior position, and is the One giving to the Son what power the Son has. Jehovah also tells the Son what to do and what to say. Look at these verses, in light of this fact:

"Jehovah declared to my Lord [the Messiah]: 'Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.'" (Psalm 110:1, New World Translation; Young's Literal Translation; see also Acts 2:34,35)

Jesus said: "The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives...[etc]" (Isaiah 61:1; see also Luke 4:17-21)

"Jesus said to them: 'Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does in like manner.'" (John 5:19)

"For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak....Whatever I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me." (John 12:49,50)


I don't think it could be plainer. Jesus is not God, but the Son of God, and he does what the Father (God) tells him to do, whether he is in heaven or on Earth. Why would our belief in God depend on whether or not we believe that Jesus is God? The Bible clearly tells us that he is not.

[Zzyzx]

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You really don’t understand the Bible do you?

I think you just don’t get it.

Nonsense. Are you familiar with the Ark of the Covenant?

I am afraid you do not understand Sacred Scripture.

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[Avoice]

Christians have to put a face on God. And that face is Jesus. Only problem with all the statues and images is that they are imaginary. No one knows what anyone in the bible looked like. People have claimed to see Jesus on toast or tree bark etc. I say its an image of Moses. Yeah... makes as much sense. Ive noticed that the images of Jesus have changed in recent years. Looking much more European now. Light brown hair and blue eyes.

We are to aspire to be like Him. Not make Him like us. Christians want God to look like them. To think like them. Jesus is how they wish God to be. Jesus is merely a manifestations of their desires. Jesus is nothing like the God of Israel


" To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me"

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

[ttruscott]

Would you still believe in God if you discovered that Jesus is not God?

You mean us to be stuck by the word believe (accept as true) when as Christians we are called to have faith (an unproven hope ie, holding our need for proof of details in abeyance for the time being), not the proof something is true..!

Our faith in the Son of GOD as our saviour is finished and perfect. He can prove Himself to be anything but He is our saviour from the natural and legal consequences of our sin so we can repent and learn true righteousness. That is our HOPE!!!... Claim you have proven He is a four eyed fish with fangs? He is our saviour.

I think it is the devil who wants to steal our faith from us to extend the postponement of the judgement by switching our trust and hope in someone to a belief in a truth which is Satan's realm, ie, sophisticated logical argument. He can even use a truth to tell a lie: You will not die! yet he is the one who monstered the most holy old man on earth because YHWH mentioned him approvingly! <head shake, facepalm>

[onewithhim]

I was thinking of two interesting points.

1) Faith: It has been said that we have faith without any evidence that what we believe is true. I think that faith is based on evidence. It is not blind. The Bible's definition is: "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen." (Heb.11:1)

We have faith that God exists because we see what he has made (Romans 1:20). Our observation of his creation is "evident demonstration" of the reality of his existence. Then, as we have come to know he exists, then we familiarize ourselves with his acts toward, particularly, his human creation, and see how he has dealt with us. The Bible says that everything he ever promised mankind has come true, and we can see this in the pages of his Word.(Joshua 23:14) We can have faith in his promises for the future because we have seen that his promises always came true in the past. So our faith is based on evidence.

2) Postponement of Judgment: God has set a time to judge mankind, and there is nothing that man can do to "extend postponement." That time is set in stone, as it were. We have to take advantage of the time we have and listen to Jehovah's Word, and get ourselves in line to do his will.