John 5 23 - divinity claim spin off thread

[Wootah]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

Jesus: …Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.…

Wootah: Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

William: The point of Jesus mission was to inform us that we are all 'of GOD' and in that, Jesus was the messenger.
Jesus came to replace the false ideas of GOD which organised religions of the day had conjured.
Indeed, his message is clear that if we honor one another in the same spirit the information was given to us, we would be honoring GOD.
Would we argue that honoring one another is something we do not 'deserve' from one another because we are 'not GOD'?
If so, then we would do well to understand the Christ's message and stop following such notions of GOD which provoke us to feel about each other as beings who do not deserve to be honored.
Either way, it is a learned thing and the choice is each of ours to make.
We ultimately are the ones who's judgments will judge us. Christ is that which allows it to happen. The Christ acts as the individuals mirror and will reflect back exactly what the individuals judgments are...ONTO the individual.
Essentially then, through Christ, the individual ends up judging him/her self.
If the individual understands intimately that they are an aspect of GOD and express themselves accordingly, then the individual does not judge and is not judged. Because 'GOD does not judge'.

Jesus's purpose was to die for our sins and be a sacrifice that would allow those that want relationship with God to have it.

I think to engage you further would require a different thread because I don't think we mean the same thing even though I probably agree in general with some of your statements re: honouring each other but we are not an aspect of God.

Please don't reply in thread. If you want to discuss your views then please point me to a thread to discuss them.

Wootah: Jesus's purpose was to die for our sins and be a sacrifice that would allow those that want relationship with God to have it.

William: That is obviously debatable Wootah.
Not everyone requires a sacrifice of another human being in order to only then be able to "commune with GOD".
Jesus knew this and did not hide this from others...

Wootah: I don't think we mean the same thing even though I probably agree in general with some of your statements re: honouring each other but we are not an aspect of God.

William: Then in honouring each other, how do we also honour GOD?
If we do not recognize one another as aspects of The One True GOD, how are we to build GODs Kingdom on this planet? Why would we even want to?

Wootah: Please don't reply in thread. If you want to discuss your views then please point me to a thread to discuss them.

William: I want to give the reader alternative ways in which to think about the evidence re the story of Jesus.
I also want to debate your assertions in the OP.

Your OPQuestion Wootah;

"Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?"

...requires judgment where 'every other being' is not an aspect of GOD and therefore mustn't be honoured in the same way as one honors GOD.

Please explain to the reader exactly how one honours others which is different from how one honours GOD.
Perhaps then, the reader can get a better understanding as to the purpose you had behind the creation of this thread.

Jesus: The Father judges no one

William: That seems reasonable...

Jesus: The Father has assigned all judgment to the Son so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father

William: How does one honor The Son?

Jesus: Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.…

William: So one honors The Father by believing that The Father sent The Son and that what The Son says The Father told him to say, is believed.
If such is believed, then The Son does not Judge the believer, Just as The Father does not judge.

Jesus: Correct.

William: Did The Son say that we should be perfect like The Father?

Jesus: Yes.

William: Then as The Father does not Judge, nor do I. Those who Judge others are not of The Father, and will be Judged by The Son.

To further discuss the above comments.

[Wootah]

Basically I can get behind your words if they mean what I mean. Lets find out.

The point of Jesus mission was to inform us that we are all 'of GOD' and in that, Jesus was the messenger.

- No he was reconciling man to God on the cross.

Jesus came to replace the false ideas of GOD which organised religions of the day had conjured.

- Yes but not why He came.

Indeed, his message is clear that if we honor one another in the same spirit the information was given to us, we would be honoring GOD.

- This reminds me Jesus talking about sheep and goats. Who ever fed another fed Jesus whoeever mistreated another mistreated Jesus.

Would we argue that honoring one another is something we do not 'deserve' from one another because we are 'not GOD'?

- No we would not. I honour others most when I honour God most by evangelising.

If so, then we would do well to understand the Christ's message and stop following such notions of GOD which provoke us to feel about each other as beings who do not deserve to be honored.

- Agreed

Either way, it is a learned thing and the choice is each of ours to make.

-
We ultimately are the ones who's judgments will judge us. Christ is that which allows it to happen. The Christ acts as the individuals mirror and will reflect back exactly what the individuals judgments are...ONTO the individual.

- Yes our actions reflect on ourselves andcwe condemn ourselves but there still needs to be a judge.

Essentially then, through Christ, the individual ends up judging him/her self.
If the individual understands intimately that they are an aspect of GOD and express themselves accordingly, then the individual does not judge and is not judged. Because 'GOD does not judge'.

- We are separate to God but no one is without excuse because we are made in God's image and we know the moral law.

[marco]

We are separate to God but no one is without excuse because we are made in God's image and we know the moral law.

It is convenient to imagine the entirety of humankind to be each endowed with consciousness of a moral code. Some of "the least brethren" who cannot think or act for themselves have been denied this gift. Across the world and across the centuries there have been many readings of what morality is - so the imprint was inefficiently done if it were done.

Paul imposes a similar viewpoint on the Romans: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." And before Adam was, Paul is I suppose.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 3 by marco]

And before Adam was, Paul is I suppose.

What is that sentence intended to convey?

I have an idea or two, but you are the author!

Grace and peace.

[marco]

[Replying to post 3 by marco]

And before Adam was, Paul is I suppose.

What is that sentence intended to convey?

I have an idea or two, but you are the author!

Grace and peace.

When we have to explain our aphorisms, failure stares us in the face. Be that as it may, I was comparing Paul to Christ. Christ boasted, perhaps foolishly: "Before Abraham was, I am." Some take this as meaning "I am God". If Paul was able to say "From the beginning..." and explain God's wonders so conclusively, perhaps he existed before Adam, making him perhaps better than Jesus, as his writings declare him to be. Christianity has borrowed Christ's name, but employed Paul's teaching.

[William]

Wootah: Basically I can get behind your words if they mean what I mean. Lets find out.

William:
The point of Jesus mission was to inform us that we are all 'of GOD' and in that, Jesus was the messenger.

Wootah: No...

William: Yes.

Wootah: ...he was reconciling man to God on the cross

William: Even if one chooses to believe that, how does this negate what I said, in relation to the script?
If we are not of GOD, where do we derive?
Jesus came to replace the false ideas of GOD which organised religions of the day had conjured.

Wootah: Yes but not why He came.

William: I am obviously not arguing that there was or was not a specific reason Jesus came. I refer to the script and from the script you chose to use, there are obviously more reasons than one reason.
Indeed, his message is clear that if we honor one another in the same spirit the information was given to us, we would be honoring GOD.

Wootah: - This reminds me Jesus talking about sheep and goats. Who ever fed another fed Jesus whoeever mistreated another mistreated Jesus.

William: Therein is yet another clue that Jesus mission was to inform us that we are all 'of GOD' and - depending on how we understood GOD, depended on how we treated one another.
Would we argue that honoring one another is something we do not 'deserve' from one another because we are 'not GOD'?

Wootah: No we would not.

William: So you would not preach such an idea?

Wootah: I honour others most when I honour God most by evangelising.

William:Preaching. You honor people by preaching. In that way you honor [your idea of] GOD.
Are there other ways in which you are also able to honor your idea of GOD?
We ultimately are the ones who's judgments will judge us. Christ is that which allows it to happen. The Christ acts as the individuals mirror and will reflect back exactly what the individuals judgments are...ONTO the individual.

Wootah:Yes our actions reflect on ourselves andcwe condemn ourselves but there still needs to be a judge.

William: Ultimately 'the judge' is the mirror reflection of the individuals beliefs/underlying attitude.
Those who require the image of an actual Judge, will provide themselves with one.
For those who are not Judged, there is no Judge...for obvious reasons.
Those who are not judged are those who do not judge.
Preachers - as one example - tend to Judge...
Essentially then, through Christ, the individual ends up judging him/her self.
If the individual understands intimately that they are an aspect of GOD and express themselves accordingly, then the individual does not judge and is not judged. Because 'GOD does not judge'.

Wootah: We are separate to God but no one is without excuse because we are made in God's image and we know the moral law.

William: Laws apply to those who judge/want to be judged.
What 'moral law' is there but to recognize that we are of GOD rather than separate from GOD? If one judges others as being separate from GOD, one will be Judged. That appears to be a moral law.
"Judge not or you yourself will be judged."
If you judge yourself separate from GOD, your own beliefs will Judge/make it so.

Wootah: Jesus was reconciling man to God on the cross

William: He was ending - once and for all - the ingrained practice of humans using GOD as an excuse to commit sacrificial murder.
Those who believe that their GOD requires such, will be judged by that belief...
Those who believe they are separate from GOD, will be judged by that belief...

[brianbbs67]

Genesis 6:3

[Checkpoint]

Genesis 6:3

Why did you cite that verse without any explanation?

What is that verse telling us, do you think?

Grace and peace.

[brianbbs67]

Genesis 6:3

Why did you cite that verse without any explanation?

What is that verse telling us, do you think?

Grace and peace.

Without God's breath, we live not. So, in that way, we are of God since His breath animates us.

[Checkpoint]

Genesis 6:3

Why did you cite that verse without any explanation?

What is that verse telling us, do you think?

Grace and peace.

Without God's breath, we live not. So, in that way, we are of God since His breath animates us.

Yes, the breath 0r spirit of life animates us humans, just as it does all animaps, all birds, and all fish.

Thus they too are, in that way, of God.

Grace and peace.