Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?
John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Moderator: Moderators
-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 227 times
- Been thanked: 115 times
John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 227 times
- Been thanked: 115 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #61[Replying to post 59 by JehovahsWitness]
Just as".. doesnt mean EQUAL it means "in the same manner/ in the same way"
Ok lets agree on this from you (andcalso agree bread and butter pudding is delicious).
It disrespects God to honour anyone in the same manner / in the same way as you would honour God. It's blasphemy to claim one is worthy of honour in the same way or manner as God'.
I don't think I'm being circular. So I dont see anything to defend on that charge. I recently was accused of being circular in another thread and so I posted a question on a website called logically fallacious to get an outside opinion. Why not ask there and see if I am being circular?
Just as".. doesnt mean EQUAL it means "in the same manner/ in the same way"
Ok lets agree on this from you (andcalso agree bread and butter pudding is delicious).
It disrespects God to honour anyone in the same manner / in the same way as you would honour God. It's blasphemy to claim one is worthy of honour in the same way or manner as God'.
I don't think I'm being circular. So I dont see anything to defend on that charge. I recently was accused of being circular in another thread and so I posted a question on a website called logically fallacious to get an outside opinion. Why not ask there and see if I am being circular?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 22822
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 892 times
- Been thanked: 1331 times
- Contact:
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #62Not If "the manner*" refers to "giving due respect" (due as in deserving).Wootah wrote:
It disrespects God to honour anyone in the same manner / in the same way as you would honour God.
*"manner" should not be confused with AMOUNT, it does not imply equality of status, position power authority or worth. If someone eats their soup in the same manner or way that they eat their breakfast cereal, it might mean they slurp both. It doesn't mean the soup and the cereal have equal nutrional value.
If someone says "I treat everyone the same/ in the same way/the same manner" and that "manner" is with kindness and respect. It would mean that whether it is a tramp or a king, they get respect. It doesn't mean a tramp has the same earning power, properties, job, authority or social status a king.
JW
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
-
tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6522
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 360 times
- Been thanked: 331 times
- Contact:
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #63Peace to you!
I do not see how "honor the Son just as you honor the Father" is a claim that the Son is God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel). Honor is not worship, or we would not have been told to honor our parents.
If we can respect the Son just as we respect the Father - and - listen to the Son just as we listen to the Father - and - obey the Son just as we obey the Father... without suggesting that the Son must be God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel)... why must it be so with the word 'honor'?
Peace again to you!
Wootah wrote: Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?
I do not see how "honor the Son just as you honor the Father" is a claim that the Son is God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel). Honor is not worship, or we would not have been told to honor our parents.
If we can respect the Son just as we respect the Father - and - listen to the Son just as we listen to the Father - and - obey the Son just as we obey the Father... without suggesting that the Son must be God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel)... why must it be so with the word 'honor'?
Peace again to you!
-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 227 times
- Been thanked: 115 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #64You nailed it. The blasphemy is when a clearly inferior being wants the respect of a clearly superior being.JehovahsWitness wrote:Not If "the manner*" refers to "giving due respect" (due as in deserving).Wootah wrote:
It disrespects God to honour anyone in the same manner / in the same way as you would honour God.
*"manner" should not be confused with AMOUNT, it does not imply equality of status, position power authority or worth. If someone eats their soup in the same manner or way that they eat their breakfast cereal, it might mean they slurp both. It doesn't mean the soup and the cereal have equal nutrional value.
If someone says "I treat everyone the same/ in the same way/the same manner" and that "manner" is with kindness and respect. It would mean that whether it is a tramp or a king, they get respect. It doesn't mean a tramp has the same earning power, properties, job, authority or social status a king.
JW
JW
No man or angel is deserving of the respect due to God. Surely we can agree on that!?!
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 227 times
- Been thanked: 115 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #65Add it up Tam (from your post you think we can):tam wrote: Peace to you!
Wootah wrote: Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?
I do not see how "honor the Son just as you honor the Father" is a claim that the Son is God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel). Honor is not worship, or we would not have been told to honor our parents.
If we can respect the Son just as we respect the Father - and - listen to the Son just as we listen to the Father - and - obey the Son just as we obey the Father... without suggesting that the Son must be God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel)... why must it be so with the word 'honor'?
Peace again to you!
Honour the Son just as the Father.
Respect the Son just as the Father.
Listen to the Son just as the Father.
Obey the Son just as the Father.
Be honest, if Donald Trump said the above about himself and God you would know Donald Trump was claiming deity. Would you at least be suspicious of someone who made those claims today?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8667
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2257 times
- Been thanked: 2368 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #66Wootah wrote:Add it up Tam (from your post you think we can):tam wrote: Peace to you!
Wootah wrote: Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?
I do not see how "honor the Son just as you honor the Father" is a claim that the Son is God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel). Honor is not worship, or we would not have been told to honor our parents.
If we can respect the Son just as we respect the Father - and - listen to the Son just as we listen to the Father - and - obey the Son just as we obey the Father... without suggesting that the Son must be God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel)... why must it be so with the word 'honor'?
Peace again to you!
Honour the Son just as the Father.
Respect the Son just as the Father.
Listen to the Son just as the Father.
Obey the Son just as the Father.
Be honest, if Donald Trump said the above about himself and God you would know Donald Trump was claiming deity. Would you at least be suspicious of someone who made those claims today?
A better analogy would be if the son being referred to was Donnie Junior. Would anyone take this as a claim that Donnie was the President of the United States?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 227 times
- Been thanked: 115 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #67[Replying to post 65 by Tcg]
Interestingly back in antiquity the Prince was equal to the Father. Especially when sent to another land the other country would treat the Son as the Father. Ill try to find a reference.
Interestingly back in antiquity the Prince was equal to the Father. Especially when sent to another land the other country would treat the Son as the Father. Ill try to find a reference.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6522
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 360 times
- Been thanked: 331 times
- Contact:
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #68Peace to you,
Wootah wrote:Add it up Tam (from your post you think we can):tam wrote: Peace to you!
Wootah wrote: Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?
I do not see how "honor the Son just as you honor the Father" is a claim that the Son is God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel). Honor is not worship, or we would not have been told to honor our parents.
If we can respect the Son just as we respect the Father - and - listen to the Son just as we listen to the Father - and - obey the Son just as we obey the Father... without suggesting that the Son must be God Himself (the Most Holy One of Israel)... why must it be so with the word 'honor'?
Peace again to you!
Honour the Son just as the Father.
Respect the Son just as the Father.
Listen to the Son just as the Father.
Obey the Son just as the Father.
Be honest,if Donald Trump said the above about himself and God you would know Donald Trump was claiming deity.
I am being honest.. and no, I would not think that Trump was claiming to be God. I would think that Donald Trump was feeling a bit full of himself, but I would not think that he was claiming to be God. Not unless he stated so directly. I would assume that he was (erroneously) claiming to speak for God, as a prophet or representative or some such thing. We don't even need a hypothetical because there are religions that make that kind of claim even now; telling people to listen to them, that listening to them is the same as listening to God; that leaving them means leaving God.
That claim is as untrue of religion as it would be of Trump.
We can know this because God told us to listen to His Son. Those serving Christ will not be saying something different. Those serving Christ (and God) are not seeking followers after themselves. They are bearing witness to Christ, pointing to Christ, following and listening to Christ (as God commanded)
Test the inspired expressions, because not every spirit (or inspired expression) is from God. Test against Christ, and against love. Nothing from God will be against Christ (the Truth) or against love (since God is Himself love).
Hold all things up to the Light: Christ.
Certainly. But of that person being a false prophet; false christ. I would not suspect that the person was claiming to be God Himself (not unless the person came straight out and made that claim - but then who would given that claim even a moment's consideration?)Would you at least be suspicious of someone who made those claims today?
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
- Has thanked: 227 times
- Been thanked: 115 times
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #69[Replying to tam]
Therefore you think Jesus who did make those cliams is a bit full of himself. I would call it blasphemy.
The rest of youe post isn't evidence. Would God tell us to honour a being that is not himself just as we honour God?
Therefore you think Jesus who did make those cliams is a bit full of himself. I would call it blasphemy.
The rest of youe post isn't evidence. Would God tell us to honour a being that is not himself just as we honour God?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
tam
- Savant
- Posts: 6522
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
- Has thanked: 360 times
- Been thanked: 331 times
- Contact:
Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?
Post #70Peace to you,
Wootah wrote: [Replying to tam]
Therefore you think Jesus who did make those cliams is a bit full of himself.
Of course not. Donald Trump (and religion, and other men, etc) is not the Son of God, or the Messiah, or the Holy One of God.
Jaheshua is the Messiah, the Son and the Holy One of God (Matthew 16:16; John 6:69).
Jaheshua is the one to whom God told us to listen: "This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to Him."
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
