Angels - what does scripture tell us about them?

[Checkpoint]

When I think of angels I wonder about this and that and often come up short.

I find them something of a challenge and a mystery.

Maybe some of you are somewhat nonplussed as well.

Anyway, this thread is for us to share what we can about angels.

Such as, what angels are, why they exist, what they do and why they do those things.

And anything else you know or want to know about them.

[ttruscott]

I'm not sure what I can say in way of further explanation. I mean, if we are presupposing what I think is a fairly typical version of creation, which is the idea that God existed from eternity on his own, in the absence of any created thing (and everything is created by God, so there is literally nothing), then we are presupposing that there is no external reason for God to create.
...
We have painted ourselves into a theological corner.

MOOT...given that GOD is a Trinity, always in communication, always loving each other. This adds a dimension to your corner that resolves most of your un-problems. Sharing the love THEY had was the reason for creating a Bride.

[LuciusWrong]

I'm not sure what I can say in way of further explanation. I mean, if we are presupposing what I think is a fairly typical version of creation, which is the idea that God existed from eternity on his own, in the absence of any created thing (and everything is created by God, so there is literally nothing), then we are presupposing that there is no external reason for God to create.
...
We have painted ourselves into a theological corner.

MOOT...given that GOD is a Trinity, always in communication, always loving each other. This adds a dimension to your corner that resolves most of your un-problems. Sharing the love THEY had was the reason for creating a Bride.

Are you saying that it is a really nice corner to be trapped in? That is what it sounds like to me.

I admit I am confused about what argument you are actually making?

I am saying that all the attributes we ascribe to God become contradictory. They can't all be true. The theologians have gotten a little carried away, that's all.

Something must be sacrificed in order to make all the pieces fit together. And I'm saying that it is actually a simple problem to solve: all we have to do is say that spiritual beings are not created, and contradictions are resolved; the story unfolds naturally.

And this is a small concession, because the Bible doesn't actually say that God created the angels!


But your reply is essentially, "God had an INTERNAL reason for creating." And the part you quoted from me...I am saying that the lack of EXTERNAL reason is a problem

I think you unwittingly agreed with me, because having an internal reason (what you said) is essentially the same as NOT having an external reason (what I said).

If you identify as having the traditional view, that is fine, but it has no affect on the debate. That by itself is not an argument.

[LuciusWrong]

[Replying to post 25 by LuciusWrong]

What do you think the title "ALMIGHTY" means and how would it differ from "mighty"?

I think this will be the third time I wrote this: I'm not saying God is not the "most" powerful; I'm saying that God's level of power is irrelevant to his claim to the throne.

And since this thread is about "angels", I will reiterate that the belief that the spiritual being are all created by God creates problems that are impossible to resolve without changing something.

What would you prefer to change to resolve the question?

Years ago there was the "Open Theory" of God, which argued that God knows "everything", but only in the sense of "everything that can be known". The book argued that atomic particles are random, so therefore things in the world are random...so therefore God can't know what will happen. This theory attempts to reconcile the problem at hand, but this isn't the solution.

With my theory, we don't have to sacrifice any of God's attributes. We just have to let go of a naive assumption made by some medieval preacher. Atleast I assume it is medieval, but I'm no historian...

[LuciusWrong]

IS GOD ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUFFERING IN THE WORLD?


♦ANSWER No, one carries responsibility only for what one does or causes, not for what one legitmately allows. The natural (and spirit) world God created was perfect. Humans were perfectly designed, entirely without fault and purposed to pass on that perfect condition to their offspring through their biology. He created both humans and spirits ("angels") as free moral agents capable of determining their own future. This being the case the responsibility for any decisions such ones would make is entirely transferred to each independent being.

RESPONSIBLE

# Answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power, control, or management

# Chargeable with being the author, cause, or occasion of something (usually followed by for):

Source https://www.dictionary.com/browse/responsibility

NOTE To be RESPONSIBLE means to be accountable for that which is within one's power or control. By creating free moral agents God made intelligent beings capabe of self generated thoughts and actions not under his control. Since God was not controlling or managing their actions - having given this power to the individuals themselves - he cannot rightly be accused of being responsible for said actions.

To illustrate: If a man runs over his neighbours dog, who killed the dog? Who is responsible? The man or the manufacurer of the car? Most reasonable people would conclude that even though the accident would have been impossible if the manufactuer hadn't made the car, creating a possibility isnt the same as carrying responsibility. The manufacturer handed over CONTROL of a car, free free of default, to a competent driver, the responsibility therefore lay with the DRIVERS own negligent action.

RELATED POSTS

How could an omniscient God not have known what the bad choices his creation would make?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 314#848314

Isn't God ultimately responsible since it was He who created intelligent beings?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 875#840875

Why did God not destroy Satan when he rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 975#845975

Is foreknowledge the same as causation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 431#381431

ADAM AND EVE

Is God responsible for the original sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 875#840875

Are parents responsible for their children's choices?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 431#381431

Why did God have a law in the first place?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 911#389911

Was the Edenic Law absurd or unreasonable?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#390066

Would God not EXPECT his law to be broken ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#390066

Did Adam and Eve understand the punishment (notion of death)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 053#849053

Why did God not just ignore the original sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#848933

Why are Adams children being punished for HIS Sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#381280

What is the link between sin and it's effects and cause and consequence ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 640#381640

Further reading: Why does God allow evil and suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... suffering/

Maybe I missed it, I don't see how this post has anything to do with debating.

I see you asserting that your views are facts. But if you were debating, you would be explaining WHY you thing these are facts.

If you want to debate, pick any one of your assertions, and we'll have a debate!

I could tell you which one I want you to pick, but I don't want to ruin the fun.


(BTW, each of your answers contain a myraid of topics for debate. Like when you say that people and the world were created "perfect", you really have to define what you mean by perfect....and I expect I know exactly what you mean...which is something I would happily, no, gleefully, debate! Oh crap, did I give it away which one I'd most like to debate? Crap...)

[JehovahsWitness]

The natural (and spirit) world God created was perfect. entirely without fault, ...

you really have to define what you mean by perfect....

JW






RELATED POSTS

What is meant by the term " perfect"/"perfection"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 305#930305

What then is the meaning of the statements found in the JW book "The Finished Mystery" that Jesus has "perfect power"and "perfect wisdom"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 046#864046

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION

I have wondered why didn't God just destroy Satan before he could have created this mess.

ANSWER: Why did Jehovah not immediately destroy the Devil after his rebellion?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p845975














ORIGINS

Did God create the devil?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p835715

Why didn't God destroy Satan immediately?
viewtopic.php?p=845975#p845975

What does the bible say about Satan's origins?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#p891940

Is it possible to have free will and (freely) choose to do good?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 06#p939606

Why would someone rebel against the Almighty?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p338945

Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
viewtopic.php?p=908723#p908723

POWERS

Why is Satan called "The God of this world"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 23#p901623

Grand puppeteer
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p900093

Is SATAN omniscience and omnipresent?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p848009

Can Satan (and the demons) just pretend to be good?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p828001

Are there "good spirits" Christians should communicate with?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p836072

Did Jesus encourage his disciples to imitate Satan ?
viewtopic.php?p=1033465#p1033465

Is SATAN mentally deranged?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p939655

FATE

REV 20: 1-3What will happen to SATAN during the 1000 year rule of Christ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 25#p905325

REV 20: 7-14 When will Satan be released from "the pit" and why?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 08#p909208

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE , SATAN THE DEVIL, and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by LuciusWrong]

Maybe I missed it, I don't see how this post has anything to do with debating.

I see you asserting that your views are facts. But if you were debating, you would be explaining WHY you thing these are facts.

If you want to debate, pick any one of your assertions, and we'll have a debate! Smile

I could tell you which one I want you to pick, but I don't want to ruin the fun. Smile


(BTW, each of your answers contain a myraid of topics for debate. Like when you say that people and the world were created "perfect", you really have to define what you mean by perfect....and I expect I know exactly what you mean...which is something I would happily, no, gleefully, debate! Oh crap, did I give it away which one I'd most like to debate? Crap...)

I don't think you missed anything.

We'll see whether you two will have a real debate on a specific issue.

Hard to decide: do I say I'm not holding my breath, or do I say I'm waiting with bated breath?

Hmm...

Grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

I'm not sure what I can say in way of further explanation. I mean, if we are presupposing what I think is a fairly typical version of creation, which is the idea that God existed from eternity on his own, in the absence of any created thing (and everything is created by God, so there is literally nothing), then we are presupposing that there is no external reason for God to create.
...
We have painted ourselves into a theological corner.

MOOT...given that GOD is a Trinity, always in communication, always loving each other. This adds a dimension to your corner that resolves most of your un-problems. Sharing the love THEY had was the reason for creating a Bride.

What if that is not in fact a given, but only a widespread but contested assumption or interpretation?

Grace and peace.

[ttruscott]

What IF the first IF is a non-starter, because it assumes humanity was created as eternal beings?

What IF God created humanity with potential, but not actual, immortality?

Perhaps God did not create the commonly understood hell because He had no need to do so.

It was stated or implied that LOVE could never create a hell for anyone. I merely set out the logical structure of reality wherein Love could and would create hell for some people. I was not arguing this was the only way to see reality nor that all of my IFs were proven, just that they were acceptable to most Christians.

Neither do I think that hell was created. Unless our reality is infinite, it has an edge, either directionally or dimensionally. I think the possibility exists that the outer darkness, into which all the evil people and the evil things they necessitated are thrown, is outside of our reality into the uncreated place past edge of our creation.

[ttruscott]

I am saying that all the attributes we ascribe to God become contradictory. They can't all be true. The theologians have gotten a little carried away, that's all.

That is because the so called Fathers idolized Greek wisdom and brought Greek definitions into Church doctrine most of which were blasphemies.

And I'm saying that it is actually a simple problem to solve: all we have to do is say that spiritual beings are not created, and contradictions are resolved; the story unfolds naturally.

I contend that all spirits created in the image of GOD, ie, able to be a true marriage partner for HIM, were created all together at the same time well before the creation of the physical universe. I believe this is fully implied in the Bible.

If so it might give us the impression that the spiritual beings were never created as eternally existing but existing before the creation of the physical world DOES NOT NECESSARILY imply eternal existence but also implies that we all may have been brought into existence pre-physicality. And I too believe that our pre-conception existence solves a great deal of the misunderstandings of Christian doctrine and alleviates the necessity to have to accept blasphemy as a Church Foundation.

And this is a small concession, because the Bible doesn't actually say that God created the angels!

Everything in the bible is open to dispute, every fact or every doctrine can be refuted by a twisting of the scripture itself. Iow, there is no proof in the bible for itself or its claims...and that's why we are directed to GOD HIMself and not to what we think is the proper understanding of what is written, the easy way or the best way:Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

But your reply is essentially, "God had an INTERNAL reason for creating." And the part you quoted from me...I am saying that the lack of EXTERNAL reason is a problem

I'm suggesting that your need to find an external reason is a personal fixation that has no real necessity, that is, I see no problem with no external reason at all, especially at a time when there was nothing external to THEM at all.

As for being traditionalist, there are few if any strict Christian Traditionalists on this forum and I am counted as way off...

If you can interpret angels any way you need to to support your contentions then so can I, eh? There is no proof either way...and apart from the entertaining story about walking stones (which I read before in some magazine or other) you have yet to attach anything of importance to your conjecture about their eternal existence.