John 5 23 - divinity claim?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:53 am

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:13 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Wootah wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Wootah wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
You're taking this scripture out of context. You're actually starting in the middle of a sentence when you quote only verse 23.

John 5:22 and 23 says, "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

Because Jehovah judges no one people are to honor His Son just as the Father on the matter of judgment. It doesn't mean they are equals.

Scripture must be taken in context.
It gets worse for you not better: What sort of righteous fair God of justice that knows and sees all gives judgement to a son that does not know and see all?
Since you are now changing the subject, I take it you understand now that John 5:23 is not making Jehovah equal with His Son.

Oh come on ... I went where you led. Just answer the question.

What sort of righteous fair God of justice that knows and sees all gives judgement to a son that does not know and see all?

Does Jesus know all and see all?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:19 pm

Wootah wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Wootah wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Wootah wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.
You're taking this scripture out of context. You're actually starting in the middle of a sentence when you quote only verse 23.

John 5:22 and 23 says, "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

Because Jehovah judges no one people are to honor His Son just as the Father on the matter of judgment. It doesn't mean they are equals.

Scripture must be taken in context.
It gets worse for you not better: What sort of righteous fair God of justice that knows and sees all gives judgement to a son that does not know and see all?
Since you are now changing the subject, I take it you understand now that John 5:23 is not making Jehovah equal with His Son.
Oh come on ... I went where you led. Just answer the question.

What sort of righteous fair God of justice that knows and sees all gives judgement to a son that does not know and see all?

Does Jesus know all and see all?

Matthew 9:4 says, "Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said: â€œWhy are you thinking wicked things in your hearts?"

I honestly don't know what all Jesus does know. I do know that he can read a person's heart. Does someone need to know all or just know what is in a person's heart to judge? Couldn't you judge a person by what they want to do and are planning to do, even not knowing what they have done in their past? I also don't see Jehovah giving His Son such a huge responsibility yet leaving him ill-equipped for the task.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:50 pm

[Replying to 2timothy316]

If the task is sending people to heaven or hell do you want a just judge that has all the evidence?

How can Jesus know their thoughts?

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:41 pm

John 5:22-23 English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:41 am

Wootah wrote: [Replying to 2timothy316]

If the task is sending people to heaven or hell do you want a just judge that has all the evidence?

First, there is no hell only eternal death. Second, the other option is life, either on earth and for some in heaven. (Isaiah 45:18, Rev 14:3) However, do humans even know what perfect justice is? Is it you, I or any human that determine what perfect justice is? You speak of evidence but is it you or I that determine what is admitted into evidence? Take a person's past sins. The Bible says that past sins from which we turn away from are forgiven and never brought up again. Micah 7:18, 19 speaks of sins we repent from as being thrown into the deaths of the sea. In other words, unrecoverable. According to the Bible sins we no longer practice are not included in evidence. When you say 'knows all' what do you mean?

How can Jesus know their thoughts?

I have never had this power so I don't know how it works. The best neuroscientist in the world can't build a brain and I remember one surgeon being quoted as saying, 'I've operated on many brains but I've never seen a single thought'. The Bible simply says that Jesus knows what people are thinking. Beside as a 'master worker' at his Father's side 'in the beginning' of the creation of humans (Proverbs 8:30, 31), asking how Jesus understands the human mind is like asking how can a computer programmer understand how a program he built works. He built it, why wouldn't he know how it works?

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:36 pm

brianbbs67 wrote: John 5:22-23 English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

You have quoted the key verse in full, but without your own comment.

Why?

Which post or poster were you addressing?

What exactly was your point?

Grace and peace to you.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:37 pm

Checkpoint wrote:
brianbbs67 wrote: John 5:22-23 English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
You have quoted the key verse in full, but without your own comment.

Why?

Which post or poster were you addressing?

What exactly was your point?

Grace and peace to you.

His post reminded me of yours. At least brian didnt waste time with some other sentences. It's just obvious what he meant and that he agrees with me.

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:53 pm

Wootah wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
brianbbs67 wrote: John 5:22-23 English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
You have quoted the key verse in full, but without your own comment.

Why?

Which post or poster were you addressing?

What exactly was your point?

Grace and peace to you.
His post reminded me of yours. At least brian didnt waste time with some other sentences. It's just obvious what he meant and that he agrees with me.

It did?

Which post of mine was that?

He agrees with you?

About what?

Grace and peace to you.

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:45 pm

brianbbs67 wrote: John 5:22-23 English Standard Version (ESV)

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

If we are to believe this, God has delegated to Jesus. If God gives you a job, I would imagine He gives you the means to accomplish it. Scripture also indicates that all we have ever done is recorded and we will be held to account for it. I imagine our repentance and listening to Jesus covers most of these misdeeds.(transgressions of the law.) This is act is not unheard of in OT history. The angel of the Lord sent to Abraham was treated the same scripturally and physically as God Himself. He was the right hand of the Lord. Asrael is believed by some to be the angels name.(but who knows?)

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:00 am

"Just as".. doesnt mean EQUAL it means "in the same manner/ in the same way". So just as Sally got "a desert" Billy will likewise (as in, "in a similar manner") get "a desert". If mom calls the desert bread so be it (in the UK we do in fact have a desert called "bread and butter pudding" it's made from bread, milk and sugar. But I digress).

If someone wanted to imply equality rather than similtude they would have to say "just as MUCH desert" and if it was a proposal of exact duplication she would have to be more specific ie "You will get the exact same AMOUNT of the same desert as your brother".

If the person was speaking about something that is NOT quantitative for example love/honour/respect....( which I think is Tim's point) then with "I love you just as I love your brother", position, role, power, age, responsibility ect of the individuals concerned cannot be implied from the "just as".

Which brings me back to the point you did not address which is, isn't your argument circular since it is based on the unproven assumption that God and Jesus are equal. In short you seem to be saying God and Jesus are equal, thus any request they both be honoured must prove they are equal. Circular.

JW

Does just as imply exact duplication in scripture (by tigger)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 272#967272

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John 5 23 - divinity claim?

John 5 23 - divinity claim?

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Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?

Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?

Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?

Re: John 5 23 - divinity claim?