Was Paul a Trinitarian?

[Elijah John]

Was Paul a Trinitarian?

[Elijah John]

Was Paul a Trinitarian?

No, and neither was the early Church.

I agree, but do you have any evidence? It was really not intended as a "yes or no" question, though it may have been worded that way.

Why not, therefore, reword the question, or put what you intended in a clearer way?

All I would need to do is add "please support your position with evidence". But I thought that goes without saying, especially on this site, and especially for one who has been with us for awhile.

[polonius]

Following Jesus' execution in about 33 AD, his followers continued to be very orthodox observant Temple worshiping members of the Jewish faith.

It was about 82 AD that they decided that Jesus was, in addition to being the Messiah, in fact, divine himself. That made two persons in God or Binitarianism.

This resulted inf the early Christians being anathematized from the Jewish synagogues as apostates, since "Hear O Isreal, the Lord is one!"was the fundamental Jewish commandment.

The belief in three persons in God came following the Council of Nicera (c. 325 AD) and the Council of Constance in c. 375 AD.

Since Paul died in 64 AD, he couldn't have been a trinitarian since there was no Trinity until 300 years after his death.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 12 by polonius]


You wrote in 'Jesus is God,' post #304:"But about 83 AD, they began to claim that Jesus too was divine"

I replied with:

Hi, Polonius. What is your source for 83 A.D.?

If the deity of Jesus had really been taught (or believed) by the first Christians, the schism between the Jews (who considered such a teaching "an unpardonable offense") and Christians would have been immediate, irrevocable, and incredibly intense. But that is not what caused the greatest and final split between the sect of the first Christians and the Jews. Nor is it what caused Christians after 135 A.D. to rid themselves of "Jewish" aspects of the new religion (possibly including the writing of the Divine Name).

"The Jewish belief that the parting of the ways came not at Stephen’s martyrdom but after Bar Kochba’s war against Hadrian [132-135 A. D.] is now gaining ground. Previously there had been no event sufficiently striking to sever the ties. Christians frequented the synagogues: they were still a Jewish sect. [See my ISRAEL study] But Bar Kochba was hailed by Aqiba as the Messiah. This the Christians could not condone and they stood aside. .... The Jews regarded the Christians as renegades: the Christians would not fight for Aqiba’s Messiah. The die had fallen and there was no recalling the past." - Encyclopedia Britannica, p. 167, Vol. 13, 14th ed.

Noted Christian Bible historian, Philip Schaff writes: " (A.D. 132-135). A pseudo-Messiah, Bar-Cochba (son of the stars, Num. 24:17), afterwards called Bar-Cosiba (son of falsehood), put himself at the head of the rebels, and caused all the Christians who would not join him to be most cruelly murdered." – p. 37, History of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1995 reprint.
- - - - - - - - - - - -

It was the generation following the destruction of the Temple which brought about a final rupture between Jews and Christians .... In the third rebellion against Rome [132-135 A.D.], when the Christians were unable to accept bar Kochba as their Messiah, they declared that their kingdom was of the other world, and withdrew themselves completely from Judaism and everything Jewish. The alienation process was completed. Judaism and Christianity became strangers to each other .... A wall of misunderstanding and hate was erected by the narrow zealotries of the two faiths. [pp. 152, 153, Jews, God and History, Max I. Dimont, A Signet Book, 1962.]

"Cochba [bar Kochba] ... tortured and killed the Christians who refused to aid him against the Roman army." - p. 42, Greek Apologists of the Second Century, Robert M. Grant, The Westminster Press, 1988.

"Another Christian apologist, Justin [Martyr], tells how ... Bar Kochba, the leader of the insurrection, ordered Christians alone to be executed if they would not deny and curse Jesus the Messiah." - Ibid.

"After the war the Jerusalem church, once Jewish, consisted only of Gentiles." - Ibid.

So what is your source for Christians claiming Jesus to be divine (Binitarianism) in 82/83 A.D.?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 7 by PinSeeker]

Very interesting that Checkpoint uses Paul's words in Ephesians to dispute the Trinity and Paul's Trinitarianism (or lack thereof), because Paul taught in Ephesians 2 that worship that is in spirit and truth is Trinitarian. No, the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly mentioned, but Paul explains there that, in worship, the congregation lifts its collective heart to God to declare His worth, and as the flow of worship progresses and God is praised, the congregation’s approach to God is always Trinitarian. Specifically, Paul wrote:

“for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father� Ephesians 2:18.

Hello again, Pinseeker.

The "Trinitarianism"you describe here is not the doctrinal aspect this thread is intended to be about.

Doctrinally, Paul was not a Trinitarian.

Ephesians 1:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ], who has...

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 7 by PinSeeker]

Very interesting that Checkpoint uses Paul's words in Ephesians to dispute the Trinity and Paul's Trinitarianism (or lack thereof), because Paul taught in Ephesians 2 that worship that is in spirit and truth is Trinitarian. No, the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly mentioned, but Paul explains there that, in worship, the congregation lifts its collective heart to God to declare His worth, and as the flow of worship progresses and God is praised, the congregation’s approach to God is always Trinitarian. Specifically, Paul wrote:

“for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father� Ephesians 2:18.

Hello again, Pinseeker.

The "Trinitarianism"you describe here is not the doctrinal aspect this thread is intended to be about.

Doctrinally, Paul was not a Trinitarian.

Ephesians 1:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ], who has...

Thanks for your opinion.

But it really doesn't matter whether Paul was a trinitarian or not, does it? All that matters was that he preached the triune nature of our One True God, right? And he did. Thanks be to God, not Paul. Paul was just a man, like you and me. I think he would be the first to tell you that.

Peace, brother.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 7 by PinSeeker]

Very interesting that Checkpoint uses Paul's words in Ephesians to dispute the Trinity and Paul's Trinitarianism (or lack thereof), because Paul taught in Ephesians 2 that worship that is in spirit and truth is Trinitarian. No, the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly mentioned, but Paul explains there that, in worship, the congregation lifts its collective heart to God to declare His worth, and as the flow of worship progresses and God is praised, the congregation’s approach to God is always Trinitarian. Specifically, Paul wrote:

“for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father� Ephesians 2:18.

Hello again, Pinseeker.

The "Trinitarianism"you describe here is not the doctrinal aspect this thread is intended to be about.

Doctrinally, Paul was not a Trinitarian.

Ephesians 1:

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ], who has...

Thanks for your opinion.

But it really doesn't matter whether Paul was a trinitarian or not, does it? All that matters was that he preached the triune nature of our One True God, right? And he did. Thanks be to God, not Paul. Paul was just a man, like you and me. I think he would be the first to tell you that.

Peace, brother.

What doesn't matter is our opinions, as such, whether they oppose or agree with what other opinions claim.

However, they do matter if they match with what scripture intends by what it says, both specifically and as a whole.

That's not an easy task for anyone.

It requires the application of sound hermeneutics combined with ears that hear and eyes that see.

And humility!

[PinSeeker]

What doesn't matter is our opinions, as such, whether they oppose or agree with what other opinions claim. However, they do matter if they match with what scripture intends by what it says, both specifically and as a whole.

Well, I would say, all opinions matter, on the human level, just as all people matter. God uses our opinions -- one way or the other -- to accomplish His purposes.

That's not an easy task for anyone. It requires the application of sound hermeneutics combined with ears that hear and eyes that see. And humility!

No doubt.

[polonius]

Tigger 2 asked:

So what is your source for Christians claiming Jesus to be divine (Binitarianism) in 82/83 A.D.?

[polonius]

Tigger 2 asked:

So what is your source for Christians claiming Jesus to be divine (Binitarianism) in 82/83 A.D.?

RESPONSE:

Written by Luke c. 80 AD, Supposedly spoken my Peter

"You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know

The widely held view that Jesus was special in some way but not divine himself was condemned in 325 AD by the Council of Nicea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/[b]Binitarianism
[/b]
“Hurtado's view might be interpreted as urging that, at this stage in the development of the Church's understanding, it could be said that God is a person (the Father) and one being; and that Jesus is distinct from the Father, was pre-existent with God, and also originating from God without becoming a being separate from him, so that he is God (the Son). This view of a binitarian pattern of devotion would posit a unity of God's being and a oneness of the object of worship, which is sympathetic to its predecessor view in Judaism; and it also displays a plurality of simultaneous identities, which is sympathetic to its successor in trinitarianism. It is a development in understanding of Christ, in other words, from which arose several subsequent ones in the further course of development that eventually came into conflict with one another.


http://explorefaith.org/faq/church/judaism.html


“As the Jesus Movement spread and came into contact with other influences, such as Greek philosophy and Roman cultural centers outside Judea and Syria, the movement felt a growing need to differentiate itself from other religions and philosophies. They did so in the time-honored practice of declaring their views true and other views false. At the same time, Rome was engaged in ruthlessly repressing Jewish revolts. Some Jesus people interpreted those devastating attacks as further signs of their rightness.�

https://forums.catholic.com/t/when-did- ... ism/425637

Most scholars and historians say that Christianity began as a sect and renewal movement within Judaism and that for the first few decades Christianity wasn’t seen as totally distinct from Judaism. The Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D) was the basis for the split between Judaism and Christianity, but that the break finally came in between a 60 year period from 70 A.D (destruction of the Second Temple) and 132 A.D (Bar Kokhba revolt).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim

“The writing of the benediction is attributed to Shmuel ha-Katan at the supposed Council of Jamnia which was inserted in the "Eighteen Benedictions" as the 19th blessing in the silent prayer to be said thrice daily, the Amidah. The benediction is thus seen as related to the Pharisees, the development of the Hebrew Bible canon, the split of early Christianity and Judaism as heresy in Judaism, the origins of Rabbinic Judaism, origins of Christianity, Christianity in the 1st century, and the history of early Christianity.�
"Two medieval Cairo Genizah copies include references to both minim and Notzrim("Nazarenes", i.e. "Christians").[7][8][9]

The "Third" member of the Trinity was added by the Council of Constance in about 380 A.D.

Acts of the Apostles chapter 2, Peter speaking about 80 AD.

"This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him.

But God raised him up, releasing him from the throes of death, because it was impossible for him to be held by it.l

NB. Jesus is not divine and "raised" by God, that is, did not"rise" by his own power.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 19 by polonius]

Acts of the Apostles chapter 2, Peter speaking about 80 AD.

No, Peter spoke those words about 33 or 34 AD, on the Day of Pentecost.