Evangelicals, could you be happy in Heaven if you knew

[Elijah John]

This topic is primarily addressed to those who adhere to exclusionary theologies, such as Evangelical Christians and Fundamentalists. Those whose favorite verses include John 14.6 and consider everyone but "Born Again" Christians to be "lost".

For debate, could you be happy in Heaven if you knew your loved ones (spouse, parents siblings, friends, etc) were being tortured forever in hell, simply for believing the "wrong" things about Jesus, and not "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior"? Say, if a loved one was a heretic, an atheist, or converted to another religion, such as Judaism, Taoism, or Islam?

Or is it possible that God is far more wise, compassionate and merciful than your theology or pastor teaches? That He has other, far more compassionate ways to punish and/or rehabilitate in the afterlife, or in the world to come?

OR that He doesn't even reward or punish based on "right" or "wrong" belief", but on actions and attitudes of heart towards our fellow humans?

[Tcg]

Or is it possible that God is far more wise, compassionate and merciful than your theology or pastor teaches? That He has other, far more compassionate ways to punish and/or rehabilitate in the afterlife, or in the world to come?

Why would God need to punish and/or rehabilitate his creation? If he created his product with a flaw, it is he that would need rehabilitation and/or punishment.


The least he could do would be to issue a recall and correct his mistake. If he had the integrity to do that, perhaps he'd do a better if he ever get's back in the business of creating.



Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses: we don't believe in hellfire. We do however "evangelise" (See Mat 28:19,20). To answer the question I could not be happy with such a situation.


JW

[ttruscott]

For debate, could you be happy in Heaven if you knew your loved ones (spouse, parents siblings, friends, etc) were being tortured forever in hell, simply for believing the "wrong" things about Jesus, and not "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior"?

You ask us to focus again on the hard aspects of our beliefs - so be it, but let's get it right, ok?

1. No one is tortured in hell.
Torture: the illegal and immoral action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

The executions ordered by a properly constituted and authorised Judge are not tortures, no matter how painful they are to the one who earned the, they are judgements.

It is written: YHWH takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. This implies that HE did not cause in any way or do any other thing to bring about their fate in hell besides their own free will decision to reject HIS warnings.


2. ...for simply believing the wrong things.
How can believing the wrong thing end in hell? There is no simply about it.

GOD wanted to share the love THEY had with others in a heavenly communion that was the blueprint for all marriage. Since love nor marriage are real if forced, HE was forced by HIS purpose to give everyone created in HIS image, that is, able to be a proper marriage partner, a free will by which they could decide to accept HIS proposal or to reject it. Only by a free will decison to accept HIM could a real marriage with HIM be made.

Such a decision had to be made with as full an understanding of the consequences as possible without coercing the decision or it would not be a true choice but a guess about what we really most wanted. At the same time, PROOF of HIS deity and power would coerce the decison forcing everyone to agree to the wedding whether they were inclined to it or not because such proof of HIS GLORY cannot be resisted. This meant that we had to choose to accept or to reject HIS claim to be our GOD without proof and that their rejection of HIS Deity would make them eternally unable to fulfill to HIS purpose for our creation.

What would it take to reject the claims of a Person (or Three People) who claim that if you reject them you will end in hell, if you thought there was any possibility that you would go to hell if HE ever proved HE was indeed your GOD?

Would it not take a profound commitment to the idea that HE was NOT GOD at all but a false god and a liar? As the first liar / sinner of all existence HE would be the most evil person in existence. They would have to be fully committed to being right to take the chance of going to hell over any chance they might have to to be married to HIM forever.

Their rejection of YHWH as a false god included a rejection of the Son as a source of salvation for any and all sin, believing that sin and righteousness were not real distinctions but manipulations to coerce people into false worship. Therefore once they rejected the Son as saviour, they had no redress for their sinfulness, having put themselves outside of HIS loving mercy and grace forever.

Free will must be sacrosanct or it is bogus if HE willy nilly changes our decision because HE thinks it is wrong and not useful to HIS purpose. Once someone rejected HIM as GOD and HIS Son as saviour they are left to their own to create their sinful lives as best they can without HIS salvation from sin.

So simple disbelief, eh? Simple enough for sure but a choice that accepts the consequences are missing from claiming they are condemned for a simple disbelief. Once hell is on the line disbelief becomes the new HUGE issue, not quite so simple as thought.

3. So why hell and not something else?
It is written: "A little leaven (sin) leavens (corrupts) the whole lump (person, city, nation, creation)." This implies that if eternally evil people are allowed continuing contact with the righteous that the pernicious effects of their sin will corrupt even heaven if allowed.

As sinners they have no power to escape their addiction to evil in themselves and by rejecting YHWH as their GOD by their free will they put themselves outside of HIS mercy forever.

Can't they change their mind? Oh, yes, they sure can and did once HE proved HIS deity and power which all clearly saw and understood but they were forced by this proof to know HE was their GOD. But without their free will commitment to HIM, they could never fulfill HIS plan for them to be HIS Bride. They chose a life without HIM over a life married to HIM and this they get.

The only recourse to the evil choices they made was banishment to the outer darkness to save HIS faithful from their sin.

4. So to answer your question: Could we be happy with loved ones in the outer darkness?

In the parable of the sinful but good seed, Jesus taught us that the sinful elect, that is, those who put their faith in HIM as their GOD but then chose to sin, must live with the eternally sinful reprobate who cannot repent since IF the judgement happened while these elect were in this sinful state of idolatry, they too would be damned against HIS promise to them. Yet the whole import of the OT and the NT is the separation of GOD's people by their choice from those who are not HIS who HIS people can grow in holiness and not be defiled. Why force them to live together? The sinful elect earned it.

Once Satan and all chose to repudiate GOD's claims the judgement was absolutely necessary. But in case any elect was harbouring tender feelings for them which could bring them under the threat of judgement also, HE called for all the elect to come out from among them so they could be safely judged. And some would not, contending that the decision was made too fast not giving the reprobate time to repent, that a truly loving GOD could never treat them so and that their love for their now sinful friends could never be a sin. IF the judgement happened while these elect were in this sinful state of idolatry they too would be damned. They idolized their now eternally evil friends and loved ones over the call of GOD to holiness, not knowing by experience what living with evil would entail.

This forced the postponement of the judgement day until all the sinful elect learned that the eternal evil reprobate would never, could never, change and the only way to achieve surcease from their evil was through their banishment from this created reality. Once the last sinful elect gave up on the waiting for their non-elect friends to ever repent, and chose to finally side with GOD on the necessity of their being judged and banished, then the heavenly state and marriage would finally come to fruition.

So, on that day:
- the last of the sinful elect, free from their addiction to evil, will be fully sanctified
- all evil will vanish from this reality
- all those they used to love will be recognized by everyone as unreachable and left to their self chosen consequences, accepting by their proven experience that those who had turned against YHWH would never turn back

So I'd say yes, the truth of their sinfulness will far outweigh the love that used to be between them which died as it was proven in experience to never be enough for the reprobate to repent in truth and they could never choose to enter the heavenly state. Putting up with their sin and waiting endlessly for repentance will be over...

Yes, the now holy elect in their new marriage with all holy people could be happy with that.

[Checkpoint]

This topic is primarily addressed to those who adhere to exclusionary theologies, such as Evangelical Christians and Fundamentalists. Those whose favorite verses include John 14.6 and consider everyone but "Born Again" Christians to be "lost".

For debate, could you be happy in Heaven if you knew your loved ones (spouse, parents siblings, friends, etc) were being tortured forever in hell, simply for believing the "wrong" things about Jesus, and not "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior"? Say, if a loved one was a heretic, an atheist, or converted to another religion, such as Judaism, Taoism, or Islam?

Or is it possible that God is far more wise, compassionate and merciful than your theology or pastor teaches? That He has other, far more compassionate ways to punish and/or rehabilitate in the afterlife, or in the world to come?

OR that He doesn't even reward or punish based on "right" or "wrong" belief", but on actions and attitudes of heart towards our fellow humans?

No, I could not be happy if that was the situation.

Happily, it isn't what will be.

For God is far wiser and far more compassionate than that cruel scenario misrepresents and defames Him with.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

Elijah John wrote:
For debate, could you be happy in Heaven if you knew your loved ones (spouse, parents siblings, friends, etc) were being tortured forever in hell, simply for believing the "wrong" things about Jesus, and not "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior"?


You ask us to focus again on the hard aspects of our beliefs - so be it, but let's get it right, ok?

1. No one is tortured in hell.
Torture: the illegal and immoral action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

The executions ordered by a properly constituted and authorised Judge are not tortures, no matter how painful they are to the one who earned the, they are judgements.

Yes, let's get it right.

This is how to deal with "the hard aspects of our beliefs"?

By, in this case, saying "no matter how painful they are", it is "not torture" but "judgements"?

By saying, "No one is tortured in Hell"?

Bible translations use the word "tormented": Revelation 14:10 and 20:10.

Does "tormented" equate with "tortured", and therefore to be rendered"judged" or similarly?

Who, what, or how are we to believe, then?

[Elijah John]

This topic is primarily addressed to those who adhere to exclusionary theologies, such as Evangelical Christians and Fundamentalists. Those whose favorite verses include John 14.6 and consider everyone but "Born Again" Christians to be "lost".

For debate, could you be happy in Heaven if you knew your loved ones (spouse, parents siblings, friends, etc) were being tortured forever in hell, simply for believing the "wrong" things about Jesus, and not "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior"? Say, if a loved one was a heretic, an atheist, or converted to another religion, such as Judaism, Taoism, or Islam?

Or is it possible that God is far more wise, compassionate and merciful than your theology or pastor teaches? That He has other, far more compassionate ways to punish and/or rehabilitate in the afterlife, or in the world to come?

OR that He doesn't even reward or punish based on "right" or "wrong" belief", but on actions and attitudes of heart towards our fellow humans?

No, I could not be happy if that was the situation.

Happily, it isn't what will be.

For God is far wiser and far more compassionate than that cruel scenario misrepresents and defames Him with.

I think I've accurately presented traditional Evangelical teaching on the matter. If not, perhaps you could correct me.

I personally know an Evangelical who was worried sick because his girlfriend died without having become a "born-again" Christian. Not only the pain of the loss, but the added burden of fearing for her soul in the afterlife.

But I agree with your last statement here, and therein lies my hope in God's wisdom, compassion and mercy, which (I believe) are intrinsic to His nature.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses: we don't believe in hellfire. We do however "evangelise" (See Mat 28:19,20). To answer the question I could not be happy with such a situation.


JW

I have several important differences with your organization, but this is one thing I really respect about the teachings of the WTS. That you do not believe that God tortures those who do not make it to Paradise.

[Checkpoint]

This topic is primarily addressed to those who adhere to exclusionary theologies, such as Evangelical Christians and Fundamentalists. Those whose favorite verses include John 14.6 and consider everyone but "Born Again" Christians to be "lost".

For debate, could you be happy in Heaven if you knew your loved ones (spouse, parents siblings, friends, etc) were being tortured forever in hell, simply for believing the "wrong" things about Jesus, and not "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior"? Say, if a loved one was a heretic, an atheist, or converted to another religion, such as Judaism, Taoism, or Islam?

Or is it possible that God is far more wise, compassionate and merciful than your theology or pastor teaches? That He has other, far more compassionate ways to punish and/or rehabilitate in the afterlife, or in the world to come?

OR that He doesn't even reward or punish based on "right" or "wrong" belief", but on actions and attitudes of heart towards our fellow humans?

No, I could not be happy if that was the situation.

Happily, it isn't what will be.

For God is far wiser and far more compassionate than that cruel scenario misrepresents and defames Him with.

I think I've accurately presented traditional Evangelical teaching on the matter. If not, perhaps you could correct me.

I personally know an Evangelical who was worried sick because his girlfriend died without having become a "born-again" Christian. Not only the pain of the loss, but the added burden of fearing for her soul in the afterlife.

But I agree with your last statement here, and therein lies my hope in God's wisdom, compassion and mercy, which (I believe) are intrinsic to His nature.

In this case I am hardly in a position to correct you. On this issue I oppose what is advocated.

An advocate would be a much better person to correct you if correction is needed.

As for God's wisdom, compassion and mercy, those are up to Him.

Our God defines Himself by His name, "I will be who I will be".

Therefore He tells us:

Exodus 33:19

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Hands off!

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

If a "loved" one would suffer in Hell, this person would deserve it. I can't see it is possible to love a person ripe for Hell.

2nd: it's not possible to "trump" God's judgment by the Purgatory either. To truly love a person who goes to Hell is to go to Hell oneself as well!

Otherwise, good riddance to them who go there!