Is there meaning in the Lord's Prayer?

[marco]

We are told that Jesus recommended a format of address to God. If we examine it carefully, what do we find?

The prayer is composed of direct commands:
Give us! Forgive us! Lead us not! Deliver us!

and commands in the subjunctive mood:


"Let your name be holy; let your kingdom come; let your will be done."


The direct commands mean very little: we get from life what life gives, regardless of whether we address God or not. It is highly unlikely that reciters of the prayer ever find themselves " delivered from evil". They prayed in war time and war continued.

The appeals for God's name to be holy, and for his will to be done as conscientiously on Earth as it is in heaven - are pretty pieces of meaningless poetry.

The same results would have been achieved had Jesus simply offered:

Dear God, I love you a lot. Thanks.

Does the prayer turn folk into reciters of empty words?

If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?

[marco]

I didn't challenge you. I instructed you.

Then I have ungratefully forgotten to thank you for this instructive benison. Here was I thinking that the verbs "Give" "Forgive" ""Lead" and "Deliver" are in the imperative form when in fact they are indications of praise.

I agree intention is important, but sometimes what we intend is not what we deliver. Perhaps it requires an unbelieving child to see the Emperor is naked.


Let us agree to differ.

[De Maria]

I didn't challenge you. I instructed you.

Then I have ungratefully forgotten to thank you for this instructive benison. Here was I thinking that the verbs "Give" "Forgive" ""Lead" and "Deliver" are in the imperative form when in fact they are indications of praise.

Praise, petition, submission, awe, fear, love, repentance, and every other sense of worship and reverence. But imperatives and commands addressed to God? Nowhere in theat prayer.

I agree intention is important, but sometimes what we intend is not what we deliver.

In this case, the intent is delivered. All of us who grew up with the prayer understand the intent of it. You sound as though you've never heard the prayer before,but you want to take on the airs of an expert on what it says and means. And, in your reconstruction of it, you contradict 2000 years of prior instruction on the prayer.

Perhaps it requires an unbelieving child to see the Emperor is naked.

We were all unbelieving children at one time. And we accepted the prayer as it was offered because we understood the language that we had absorbed in our infancy.

Let us agree to differ.

Good idea.

[PinSeeker]

But still, that depends on the eye of the beholder, does it not? The Word of God, however, is beautiful above all things on its own merit. And beyond that, the depth contained in the Lord's prayer, limitless as they are, make it infinitely more beautiful. Yes, the Te Deum is beautiful, but aesthetics only go so far; the beauty you speak of is only skin deep. Not so with the Lord's prayer.

I respect your view and perhaps there is reward in faithfulness, in praising the Lord for he is kind. And maybe blindness is its own curse. People can raise the worthless to pearls of great price. It seems ludicrous, almost as horrible as lusting before a Golden Calf, to take bits of string, a bed, flies...and call them high art, worth millions while millions starve. The ability to glorify, to raise the humble to high places, is not confined to the sad world of modern art.


We take a poppy and through its poetic magic we raise money for good causes. The red flower is nothing more than a symbol and to be inspired we do not need to have read the lovely poem:

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.


The red garments of Jesus or his beaten body on a cross act as a similar symbol and I know they have inspired a wealth of good deeds.

Behind the words of the Lord's Prayer is a nice intention. You have found in the words what I can find, if I were so disposed. When Byron says: "She walks in beauty like the night" he is already in a world that is not ours. To a lesser extent Christ's composition is a worthy attempt to bridge the human-divine divide. I don't think it succeeds, but I concede that for many it has achieved its purpose. However, I suspect that from a different singer the song would attract little praise. It has been made majestic by the symbolic force of its alleged author.

But as I have said several times, the mind follows the heart. It always, sooner or later, follows the heart.

I don't know if that brings comfort. Winter is a terrible time for the mind to conceede to the frailty of the heart. Thank you for your indulgence; go well.

Not sure what to make of this. With all due respect, it seems rather mindless; drivel, really, which is quite unlike you. I'm not sure what to make of it, to be quite honest. In response to your last statement, though, if strengthened, led, and sustained by the Spirit, the heart is never frail.

Grace and peace to you.

[marco]

Not sure what to make of this. With all due respect, it seems rather mindless; drivel, really, which is quite unlike you. I'm not sure what to make of it, to be quite honest.

If I were unsure how to interpret a passage I would hesitate to call it mindless drivel, for that would seem to indicate some certainty. The language of drivel is one I'm not familiar with so I must bow to your expertise.

I suppose explanation would be wasted, so I won't bother. Go well.

[PinSeeker]

If I were unsure how to interpret a passage I would hesitate to call it mindless drivel, for that would seem to indicate some certainty.

Right, which is precisely why I said it seemed like mindless drivel.

The language of drivel is one I'm not familiar with...

I'm sure that's true, which is precisely why I said it seemed so unlike you.

...so I must bow to your expertise.

No bowing necessary.

I suppose explanation would be wasted, so I won't bother.

Maybe so. Suit yourself.

Go well.

To you the same. Grace and peace to you.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 20 by marco]

I'm not sure if the prayer is inherently useless, or its simple repetition. Many folk are wasting their time then since the Our Father is chanted daily somewhere on the globe. Are you suggesting that people should turn into composers?

Yes, absolutely. Use your own words.

Mat 6:7 KJV* But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[marco]

Yes, absolutely. Use your own words.

Mat 6:7 KJV* But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

God wrote the books that are people. It seems unnecessary for them to return his words. And then again, his novels are of different lengths and merits.

The onus would seem to be on God to address his artefacts rather than ask his artefacts to grope around in the dust for morsels of God's discarded nails. So to speak!

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 66 by marco]

God wrote the books that are people. It seems unnecessary for them to return his words. And then again, his novels are of different lengths and merits.

I believe the bible teaches that he will... in due time... every novel of all lengths and merits... for we are all His creation.

Soj

[brianbbs67]

just for reference, here is how the prayer model we were given was most probably before Rome and such

Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread; and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.

[marco]

I believe the bible teaches that he will... in due time... every novel of all lengths and merits... for we are all His creation.

Some of the most beautiful tales begin: "One day...." with a future tense. God let the Israelites struggle unhappily for forty years in the desert (God knows why) and the culmination of their misery seems to have been some brand of obscurity.

Jesus said he'd be back, and already two thousand years have passed. How time flies when you're confident a prophecy is to be fulfilled! Of course we are told "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." I understand our clever scientists are seeking ways to avoid the earth being smashed to pieces by a random asteroid before the meek can inherit it.