Is there meaning in the Lord's Prayer?

[marco]

We are told that Jesus recommended a format of address to God. If we examine it carefully, what do we find?

The prayer is composed of direct commands:
Give us! Forgive us! Lead us not! Deliver us!

and commands in the subjunctive mood:


"Let your name be holy; let your kingdom come; let your will be done."


The direct commands mean very little: we get from life what life gives, regardless of whether we address God or not. It is highly unlikely that reciters of the prayer ever find themselves " delivered from evil". They prayed in war time and war continued.

The appeals for God's name to be holy, and for his will to be done as conscientiously on Earth as it is in heaven - are pretty pieces of meaningless poetry.

The same results would have been achieved had Jesus simply offered:

Dear God, I love you a lot. Thanks.

Does the prayer turn folk into reciters of empty words?

If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?

[PinSeeker]

We are told that Jesus recommended a format of address to God. If we examine it carefully, what do we find?

A sublime and profound form of addressing God.

The prayer is composed of direct commands:
Give us! Forgive us! Lead us not! Deliver us!

Hm? We consider them petitions or requests which children make to their parents.

and commands in the subjunctive mood:


"Let your name be holy; let your kingdom come; let your will be done."

Is English your first language? Or did you study grammar in school?

Because this is obviously not a command. It is not a directive.
It is an expression of praise.

The direct commands mean very little:....

You obviously don't understand the prayer at all. Let me go over it with you
and explain it point by point.

Luke 11:2-4

OUR FATHER

First, the Our Father starts with an "address". The significant part of this
is that the Jews would have found this startling. Although they considered themselves
God's children, there is no record that the Jews addressed God as "Father"
in any of their prayers. So, Jesus is Teaching something New.

HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME

Hallowed means "worshipped, revered, recognition of holiness".

So, this is praise. May the holiness of your name ever be recognized
and proclaimed.

YOUR KINGDOM COME

This is praise embedded in a petition.
It is praise because it recognizes that God is King of Heaven and Earth.
It is a petition because we are asking God to bring His Kingdom to us where we can partake of it and submit ourselves to it.

GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD

This is praise, submission and petition.
Praise because we recognize that we need Him to provide us our sustenance.
Submission because we recognize that He is our Father and we are His children.
Petition because children ask their parents for food.

In addition, it is a reference to the Manna which God provided to the Israelites in the desert and to the Eucharist which He promised to provide to His Church.

FORGIVE US OUR SINS AS WE FORGIVE OTHERS

This is submission, petition and promise.
First, it is submission because we are expressing our fear of God. Fear that we have offended Him and thus He won't include us in our salvation. Therefore, we are begging for His mercy.

Next, it is a petition because we are asking Him for grace to wash our souls of our sins. Because, unless we are washed of sins and become Holy, we will not see His face.

Finally, we promise that we will forgive our neighbor. And we make an oath that if we don't forgive our neighbor, we understand that He will not forgive us.

DO NOT LET US FALL INTO TEMPTATION

And the final petition, again submitting and recognizing His great power over the devil and praying that He will protect us from falling into sin and losing our salvation.

So, there may be more sublime Teachings and Meanings embedded in that prayer but that's a quick summary.

Thank you for this, De Maria. There are a few things I might quibble with, but for the most part, thank you for dispelling some common misunderstandings and intentional manglings. I'm not responding here to your post, per se, but merely offering an alternate -- not necessarily "conflicting" -- view of this great expression of reverence and praise and, further than that, the rule and manner with which all our prayers and petitions should agree and symbolize. After all, Christ does not say, "Pray these exact words," but rather, "After this manner, pray...".

OUR FATHER
God is our Father in three ways:

1. By creation; in this way, He is the father of all, whether people acknowledge and/or rejoice in it and praise Him in it or not. We see this in Acts 17:28 and Malachi 2:10.
2. By election; God has, from all eternity, chosen a certain number to be His children whom He sill save.
3. By special grace; God consecrates the elect by His Spirit, and infuses a supernatural principle of holiness; thus they are said to be "born of God."

Regarding number 3, here, faith, which itself is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) is what makes God our Father (Galatians 3:26). An unbeliever may call God his/her Creator and/or Judge, but not Father.

Yes, acknowledging God as our Father is praise, and also and act of submission and thankfulness for being our father and thus our savior, helper, keeper, provider, and friend.

HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME
Another praise, but also a petition. This can also be translated "sanctified be Your Name." It already is sanctified, or set apart in perfect holiness, but the prayer is that God's name shine forth gloriously, that it may be honored and sanctified by us, in the whole course and tenor of our lives. We are not "praying to ourselves," as it were, but rather asking that God would enable us to do this by the work of His Holy Spirit in us. And there is a reason why this petition occurs first: the hallowing of God's name is to be preferred above alll things, before even life itself, even above salvation (Romans 9:23). As Christ Himself said in Matthew 12:38, this is the first and greatest commandment, so then it follows that this is the first and greatest petition. To admire God's name is not enough; we may admire a conqueror. But when we say, "Hallowed be your name," we set God's name above every name, and not only admire Him but adore Him, which is proper to God only.

YOUR KINGDOM COME
A praise and a petition indeed. We praise Him for being a great and glorious King. This praise and petition provides for:

1. our instruction (it is an honor to serve Him)
2. our exhortation (we should trust in Him, have reverence for Him, and learn subjection to Him)
3. our consolation (here is comfort to all those who are subjects of the King of Heaven; He will put forth all His royal power for the purpose of assistance, support and comfort of His people in times of hardship and distress).

YOUR WILL BE DONE
This is also a petition, and surely not a "command." We pray for two things:

1. active obedience, that we may do God's will actively in what He commands
2. passive obedience, that we may submit to God's will patiently in everything

This petition also provides for our instruction, exhortation, and consolation, but also reproof (for both believers and unbelievers) and for examination (we should examine all our deeds and ways, not just some, whether they are in accord with God's will). Even in our times of affliction these things are all true.

ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN
This covers all three of the preceding petitions. As yet, nothing in this world is perfect; far from it, actually. But in this, we pray that God would continue to redeem His world and His people, knowing that He will eventually do it, but longing for it just the same. Ultimately, it is an echo of Revelation 22: "Come quickly, Lord Jesus." It also serves as a partition, that we should seek God's glory before anything else, preferring it even before our deepest concerns. This is the example of Christ Himself, who preferred His Father's glory before His own. Why? Because this is the purpose for which we were created. It is our chief end, and as such, it is the only way in which we can be truly satisfied, fulfilled, and complete.

The rest of the praises and petitions contained in the Lord's prayer are of a practical vein in view of the preceding three and for application in our daily lives as a consequence of them.

GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD
Here we pray that God would give us such a competency in ourward things as He sees most excellent for us. In this we acknowledge our own poverty and dependence, and we acknowledge everything as a gift from His hand. And because of this, we are filled with thankfulness and praise for His goodness, His mercy, and His love and delight in doing all these things for us. 'Bread,' here encompasses everything, even the temporal (food, clothing, etc.) and spiritual blessings of this life. The obvious allusion is to His providing for the Israelites in the desert throughout the exodus. And throughout His ministry, Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Bread of Life (Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4, Luke 14:15, John 6:31-58, Mark 14:22).

FORGIVE US OUR SINS AS WE FORGIVE OTHERS
Note first that there is but one petition for the body ("give us our daily bread"), while there are two for the soul ("forgive us our sins, lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil"). This is because we are to be more careful for our souls than for our bodies; more careful for grace than for daily bread, more desirous to have our souls saved than our bodies fed.

Second, as soon as Christ had said, "Give us daily bread," He adds, "and forgive us." In this, the petition of forgiveness of sin is immediately joined to that for daily bread, because all that we may receive is nothing without forgiveness. If our sins are not pardoned, we can take but little comfort in our food or an other blessing. There are at least two uses here:
1. the condemnation of the folly of most people who look no further than the temporal blessings -- what they get -- of this life; all are (or should be) reproved for taking more care for their bodies than their souls
2. exhortation to be more careful for our souls, to ask for forgiveness of our sin and to repent of it, that God would grant us a true and lasting repentance.

LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL
Here we are to plead with God that He would not suffer us to be overcome by temptation, that we would not be given up to the power of temptation, and be drawn into sin. Temptation itself can come from within us, from within our own hearts, which are deceitful above all things (Jeremiah 17:9, James 1:14), or it can come from Satan, the tempter (Matthew 4:3), but not from God (James 1:13). By inference, God absolutely does allow us to be tempted, but this is surely for wise and holy ends. He tries our sincerity, our love, our courage, our resistance to our own pride, and in so doing makes us fitter to comfort others in the same distress and to make us long for Him and for heaven itself.

The other half of this ("deliver us from evil") serves several purposes for us, namely for:
1. instruction; sin is a deadly, pernicious evil, and it speaks to the patience, mercy, and love of God that He would bear with sinners even through our sin... also, that there is no such thing as a "little" sin; every sin is repugnant to God and an affront to His holiness and glory and debilitating to ourselves and our souls, no matter how "small"
2. exhortation; to one and all, Christian or not, to flee from sin.

FOR THINE IS THE KINGDOM AND THE POWER AND THE GLORY FOREVER
And this is the perfect summation; we glorify God for His sake alone, and our enjoyment of Him. Forever. A sublime and profound way of addressing God... yes. A song of praise to God... yes. a model of all our prayers and communications with God, both in word and deed... yes. Petitions of God that He would provide everything we need, both physical and spiritual, and not according to our own selfish desires but according to His wise providence... yes. A means of instruction, encouragement, and exhortation to ourselves and to others... yes. A plea for Jesus Himself... absolutely. As a wise friend of mine loved to say, the main thing is to keep the Main Thing the main thing.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 39 by JehovahsWitness]


Given that you seem to saying one can indeed

a) Pray to God using his name
b) Sing religious songs to Him in respectful worship using his name
c) speak to others about him in respectful discourse using his name

Pray tell in what circumstances does the following statement apply?

You calling God by his name places you outside of His home. We call God, Abba, because we are His children.

* I take it you are not suggesting that reverential use in any of these settings would be prohibited by Exodus 20:7




JW

I think all he's saying, JW, is not that using His name in any reverential way is wrong. But what is wrong is a believer addressing Him in an impersonal, even disassociating way -- even if unintentional. Someone outside His household might do that, but not the true child of God. So by doing so, a true child of God might be aligning himself -- unintentionally -- with these not of God. That's my take on him, anyway. And if that's what he's saying, I disagree with him, for what it's worth.

[marco]

The jussive (abbreviated JUS) is a grammatical mood of verbs for issuing orders, commanding, or exhorting (within a subjunctive framework). English verbs are not marked for this mood.

I am pleased you took the trouble to consult "Wikipedia" for information on the jussive subjunctive. You are contending that the appeals in the Lord's Prayer are NOT commands. You use the word "praise" as though this has some grammatical function. The Latin rendering of the prayer uses the jussive subjunctive and interestingly it uses direct imperatives.

Take for example the conclusion: "Ne nos inducas in tentationem sed libera nos a malo."


inducas is the subjunctive of inducere: ne nos inducas means "may you not lead us" and is translated by "lead us not" in recognition of the imperative element. The second part of the sentence starts with a direct imperative: "libera nos", which means free us. Clearly the early translators were well acquainted with the grammatical format, and the use of commands. What clothes Christ was wearing when he spoke seems to me irrelevant. Doubtless he delivered his suggestions in Aramaic.

In this case, a little knowledge has proven a dangerous thing for you.

Pope actually suggested "A little learning is a dangerous thing". I endorse his view. Incidentally I was offering factual information, not material that can be debated.

That Church is still here and He is still Teaching through her.

I take it you mean He is teaching through you. It is wise to restrict one's teaching to areas in which one is well versed, especially if one is representing the Lord Jesus.

[JehovahsWitness]

I think all he's saying, JW, is not that using His name in any reverential way is wrong. But what is wrong is a believer addressing Him in an impersonal, even disassociating way -- even if unintentional. Someone outside His household might do that, but not the true child of God. So by doing so, a true child of God might be aligning himself -- unintentionally -- with these not of God. That's my take on him, anyway. And if that's what he's saying, I disagree with him, for what it's worth.

Hmm... you got that from calling God by his name in a reverential way is "unnecessary" and "dishonorable" for a child of God? I guess ... it's just hard to reply to something when you dont know what exactly is being said in real terms. I sense a disapproval connected to using it but what may look like a grilling is just me trying to understand where "unnecessary" and "dishonorable" actually fits in to the picture of praise and worship.

I can't believe that the point is using God's personal name is deemed ... impersonal. But maybe that is in fact the point.


JW

[De Maria]

[Replying to post 39 by JehovahsWitness]


Given that you seem to saying one can indeed

a) Pray to God using his name
b) Sing religious songs to Him in respectful worship using his name
c) speak to others about him in respectful discourse using his name

Pray tell in what circumstances does the following statement apply?

You calling God by his name places you outside of His home. We call God, Abba, because we are His children.

* I take it you are not suggesting that reverential use in any of these settings would be prohibited by Exodus 20:7




JW

I think all he's saying, JW, is not that using His name in any reverential way is wrong. But what is wrong is a believer addressing Him in an impersonal, even disassociating way -- even if unintentional. Someone outside His household might do that, but not the true child of God. So by doing so, a true child of God might be aligning himself -- unintentionally -- with these not of God. That's my take on him, anyway. And if that's what he's saying, I disagree with him, for what it's worth.

No. I'm simply saying that God's name does not need to be mentioned all the time. And if that's not the point he is trying to make, then why is he objecting to calling God, Father, in this prayer?

I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I'm a big boy. I can handle it.

[De Maria]

[Replying to post 29 by De Maria]

Yes I did read your post, you said to "hallow" God's name we should worshipped it, revere it, recognize it and proclaimed but apparently not actually USE it

Where did I say that we should not use it at all?

....because those that actually address God by his name prove they are placing themselves {quote} ..." outside of His home.".

That's true. Since you insist that we must not address God as Father, is it because you don't feel that God is your Father? Or, why do you seem offended that we call God, Father?

How do you address your father at home? Did you call him by his first name? It is considered rude in our culture. But maybe not in yours. What about it? Did you address your real father by his first name? Or did you call him, dad or father?

Since most believers want to be inside Gods home, would that not mean mean they should proclaim it and praise it, revere it, but refrain from using it in prayer, religious song and worship and I presume conversation?

There are occasions when beloved children may use their father's name without giving offense. What did you call your father at home.

And don't think I've forgotten my previous questions which you refuse to answer.

What does "hallow" God's name mean to you?
Why does it offend you when people don't mention God's name with every stroke of the pen?

[De Maria]

The jussive (abbreviated JUS) is a grammatical mood of verbs for issuing orders, commanding, or exhorting (within a subjunctive framework). English verbs are not marked for this mood.

I am pleased you took the trouble to consult "Wikipedia" for information on the jussive subjunctive. You are contending that the appeals in the Lord's Prayer are NOT commands.

I know they're not commands. And there's another Christian in this thread who has posted a very similar response to mine. So, that proves that we have a somewhat similar hermeneutic for understanding Scriture.

You use the word "praise" as though this has some grammatical function. The Latin rendering of the prayer uses the jussive subjunctive and interestingly it uses direct imperatives.

Who cares about your grammatical functions. Last I saw, this is the "Debating Christianity" forum and the subforum is "Theology, Doctrine and Dogma". Not Grammar.

Take for example the conclusion: "Ne nos inducas in tentationem sed libera nos a malo.

inducas is the subjunctive of inducere: ne nos inducas means "may you not lead us" and is translated by "lead us not" in recognition of the imperative element. The second part of the sentence starts with a direct imperative: "libera nos", which means free us. Clearly the early translators were well acquainted with the grammatical format, and the use of commands. What clothes Christ was wearing when he spoke seems to me irrelevant. Doubtless he delivered his suggestions in Aramaic.

Who cares about the grammar. The meaning of the sentence is clear. It is a plea God keep us safe from temptation and sin. It is based on the Doctrine that we look upon God as our guide to righteousness and salvation.

Pope actually suggested "A little learning is a dangerous thing". I endorse his view. Incidentally I was offering factual information, not material that can be debated.

On an unrelated subject. This is about Doctrine, not grammar.

I take it you mean He is teaching through you. It is wise to restrict one's teaching to areas in which one is well versed, especially if one is representing the Lord Jesus.

You should take that lesson. You're here trying to impose grammar on Religion and Doctrine. Grammar might have some impact, but it is minimal. Especially since the words you are trying to interpret have already been interpreted by men who have a much better grasp on both the language, culture and doctrines they are expressing.

[De Maria]

[Replying to post 39 by JehovahsWitness]


Given that you seem to saying one can indeed

I think you've proven your bad faith by refusing to answer any of my questions. This is not an interrogation. Until you answer my questions, I will no longer answer yours.

To summarize my stance for the reader. There's nothing wrong with addressing God as Father. And there's nothing wrong with addressing God as Yahweh. But any who insist that it is wrong to call God, Father and require that God must always be addressed as Yahweh, are those who are not His children. Period.

[JehovahsWitness]

Since you insist that we must not address God as Father

Emphasis MINE

Again, could you show me where I insisted this? (I say "again" because you made the same accusation in post #33)

By insisting on using only God's name and belittling and decrying the advice to call Him our Father. The two have to be in place.

Emphasis MINE


Can you show me where I insisted on using ONLY God's name?


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you now suggesting calling God by his name is "rude"?

Are you suggesting that calling God by his name is "unnecessary",

Correct.

even "dishonorable"? Is that the point you are making?

Yes. {snip}