Being a Christian means..

[Elijah John]

Evangelical Christians often claim that true Christianity is not a religion, but a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior". Or a "personal relationship with God though Jesus Christ".

But is this what Jesus actually taught? Did Jesus ever teach anything about having a personal relationship with himself?

Instead, wasn't Jesus' focus about teaching direct access to God as Our Father? Does it really get any more "personal" than relating to God (through prayer) as Father?

Does one need to have a "personal relationship" with the teacher in order to benefit by his teaching? Or is it only necessary to have that personal relationship with the Supreme Being whom the teacher taught about?

[Wootah]

Evangelical Christians often claim that true Christianity is not a religion, but a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior". Or a "personal relationship with God though Jesus Christ".

But is this what Jesus actually taught? Did Jesus ever teach anything about having a personal relationship with himself?

Instead, wasn't Jesus' focus about teaching direct access to God as Our Father? Does it really get any more "personal" than relating to God (through prayer) as Father?

Does one need to have a "personal relationship" with the teacher in order to benefit by his teaching? Or is it only necessary to have that personal relationship with the Supreme Being whom the teacher taught about?

What is your evidence that Jesus gives you this option? Others are pointing out the clear evidence from scripture about Jesus. Post your scriptural evidence please.

[quality]

[Replying to post 11 by Wootah]

I already did

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 11 by Wootah]

I already did

I think we are on the same page of agreement. EJ needs to post evidence to support his position is what i am asking for.

[quality]

[Replying to post 13 by Wootah]

I see, thank you.

[Elijah John]

What is your evidence that Jesus gives you this option? Others are pointing out the clear evidence from scripture about Jesus. Post your scriptural evidence please.

What about Jesus? What clear evidence is that? Of what?

The evidence I present is the prayer which Jesus himself taught, the LORD's Prayer. It's in the Sermon on the Mount found in Matthew, and also in Luke. That's scriptural evidence that Jesus taught a personal relationship with the Father. Addressing God as "Father" is personal. How is that not personal and relational?

Notice there is no "in Jesus name we pray" petition in the Lord's prayer. Only an admonition to honor the name of the Father, hallowed be His name.

Nor is there any directive to pray to Jesus himself. Jesus, like John before him, taught direct access to the Father.

[marco]

The evidence I present is the prayer which Jesus himself taught, the LORD's Prayer.

The fact that the prayer is THE LORD'S PRAYER tells us something, EJ.

The fact that Jesus provided this useful prayer as a means of addressing the Father also illustrates Christ's role as intermediary.

And the fact that people went to Jesus to ask him how best they might pray shows that they accepted Jesus had a role to play in getting to the Father.

[quality]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 310#960310]Replying to Divine Insight

1 John 5:14-15

[Elijah John]

The fact that the prayer is THE LORD'S PRAYER tells us something, EJ.

The fact that Jesus provided this useful prayer as a means of addressing the Father also illustrates Christ's role as intermediary.

And the fact that people went to Jesus to ask him how best they might pray shows that they accepted Jesus had a role to play in getting to the Father.

Yes, the role of teacher/rabbi, or even prophet. But are treachers mediators? And note, Jesus was called both teacher (rabbi) and prophet by others in the NT. Never "God the Son" Never "mediator" by any of the Gospel characters. And never "priest". Those designations ("mediator", "priest" ) were only from Paul, and the unknown author of the book of Hebrews.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

What is there to suggest it is possible to have a direct relationship with the Father?

The OT has always been corporate worship.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

What is there to suggest it is possible to have a direct relationship with the Father?

The OT has always been corporate worship.

Good question. Answer? Prayer. King David's example in the Psalms. David's prayers were intimate, and to Father YHVH directly not through the agency of the Messiah. Not even through the agency of the Priests of the Temple, for the most part. But direct to God. David's relationship was with the LORD YHVH, not with the YHVH through the Messiah. Not only was David King of Israel, but he was an example to all who seek God.

Also Jesus' teaching of the Lord's prayer teaches us a couple of things.
-Where prayer should be directed, i.e. to the Father not to himself.
-And the fact that Jesus teaches us to address God as "Father" is in and of itself an indicator of direct relationship. "Father" is a term of familial relation.