CLEAR, BASIC CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR, BASIC CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

Notice the use of the word 'three' in every declaration/description of the trinity. And, of course the word 'trinity' itself includes the understanding of three.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

((Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.))
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…� - 20:31.

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God! If they had heard this, there would have been no need for false witnesses to have Jesus immediately stoned to death.
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I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed long after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" is a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth in the OT as well as the NT.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear, incomplete references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) is a tragic error.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 30 by myth-one.com]

I understand what you are saying. Yes, a very few Bible translations use the spurious 1 John 5:7 as found in the KJV. However most of us would agree that the ancient Greek manuscripts and the NT Greek texts made from them are the closest we can come to the original inspired writings and are what we mean when we say 'the Bible.'

If you would click on the link given above, you would see a few of those many trinitarian scholars who admit this and why they do. Not any single Bible translation.

I'm sure you won't find any scripture which uses the word 'three' to describe God.

[tigger2]

Challenge (D)

The fourth request for clear, undisputed evidence of a trinity (or Jesus being 'equally God') asked for in the OP:

"Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

"(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God the Son," (equal to those declaring "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)"

You could add "God, the Christ," "God, the Messiah," "God, the Firstborn," or any other term used exclusively for Jesus. But, surely, if the trinity doctrine were true, we would at least find the term "God, the Son" used nearly as often as "God, the Father"!

Using a Bible concordance (Strong's, Young's, or an on-line concordance will do) and looking under "Son," you will find exactly zero uses of "God the Son."

Jesus is never called "God, the Son"!

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 32 by tigger2]

CHALLENGE (E)

The fifth request for undisputed, clear, repeated evidence of a trinity (or that a person other than the Father is equally God with him) as requested in the OP 
(E). Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
 
Again, when one searches through a good concordance ("spirit" or "holy"), he finds that there is never an instance of 'God, the Holy Spirit' to be found in scripture!  Nor any other clear, undisputed, repeated evidence that the HS is equally God.

[tigger2]

b]CHALLENGE F[/b]

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians - considered a sect of (the single-person God) Judaism at that time - truly believed and/or taught that Jesus was God, how could they possibly have been allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?

Quotes from NASB:

Ac 13:14 - 44 -
But going on from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, "Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it." ….

Ac 14:1 -
In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had traveled through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ."

Ac 18:4 -
And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Ac 19:8 -
And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading {them} about the kingdom of God.

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Teaching in the Temple

Mt 26:55 -
At that time Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as {you would} against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me.

Mr 12:35 -
And Jesus answering began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?

Lu 21:37, 38 -
Now during the day He was teaching in the temple, but at evening He would go out and spend the night on the mount that is called Olivet.
And all the people would get up early in the morning to come to Him in the temple to listen to Him. -

Ac 5:42 -
And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

If there had been any suspicion that the Christian sect believed in or taught a three-person God (or any other Most High God equal to YHWH), they would never have even been allowed inside the temple or a synagogue. They certainly would never have been considered a sect of Judaism (as they were up till 135 A.D. and Bar Kochba‘s Rebellion).

[polonius]

b]CHALLENGE F[/b]

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians - considered a sect of (the single-person God) Judaism at that time - truly believed and/or taught that Jesus was God, how could they possibly have been allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?

RESPONSE: Jesus was considered to be only the "Messiah" (a man) not divine until the early 80's so the Christian sect was considered to be one of those in those in orthodox Judaism.

When is followers began to say Jesus was divine, the Chrisitans were driven out of the Jewish synagogues as "minim" (apostates). See also 'The 12th Benediction said in all orthodox Jewish households. That was the "Parting of the Ways"for questions and Jews. Some of this is recorded in John's Gospel written in 95 AD.

From Wikipedia:

The Birkat haMinim (Hebrew ברכת המיני� "Blessing on the heretics") is a Jewish curse on heretics (minim). Modern scholarship has generally evaluated that the Birkat haMinim probably did originally include Jewish Christians before Christianity became markedly a gentile religion.[1] It is the 12th of the Eighteen Benedictions or Amidah.[2]

The writing of the benediction is attributed to Shmuel ha-Katan at the supposed Council of Jamnia which was inserted in the "Eighteen Benedictions" as the 19th blessing in the silent prayer to be said thrice daily, the Amidah. The benediction is thus seen as related to the Pharisees, the development of the Hebrew Bible canon, the split of early Christianity and Judaism as heresy in Judaism, the origins of Rabbinic Judaism, origins of Christianity, Christianity in the 1st century, and the history of early Christianity.

According to one theory, it was useful as a tool for outing minim ("heretics"), because no min would recite aloud or reply amen to it, as it was a curse upon minim.[3]

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 34 by tigger2]

CHALLENGE G

(G) If John, the last NT writer, truly believed the new ‘knowledge’ of Jesus being equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…� John 20:30-31.

Why in the world would he completely ignore the greatest Christian ‘revelation’ of all (‘God is three persons’) - unless it is not really true?

[marco]

CLEAR, BASIC CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Your challenges make perfect sense in a monotheistic setting. Effectively they are saying there is ONE God, not three. The Trinity, however, is not about three competing deities, and once we accept miracles, we can accept that our finite understanding fails before such a strange concept.

The Trinity may not have been expounded in the clear terms you demand simply because it is beyond expression. Were I a Trinitarian, which I am not, I would find happy solace in saying that the concept is a mystery beyond reason, so seeking to find it through reason is unreasonble.

[Elijah John]

CLEAR, BASIC CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Your challenges maake perfect sense in a monotheistic setting. Effectively they are saying there is ONE God, not three. The Trinity, however, is not about three competing deities, and once we accept miracles, we can accept that our finite understanding fails before such a strange concept.

The Trinity may not have been expounded in the clear terms you demand simply because it is beyond expression. Were I a Trinitarian, which I am not, I would find happy solace in saying that the concept is a mystery beyond reason, so seeking to find it through reason is unreasonble.

I have heard it said that one believes in the Trinity because it is beyond human comprehension. Or words to that effect. If that is the case, one may as well believe in the gods of Olympus, the "invisible" return or Christ in 1914, etc, etc. Deists, Jews, mainline Christians, by contrast, see reason is a God-given faculty, and gaurdian against all sorts of absurd and sometimes atrocious notions.

The Episcopal Church (American equivalent of the Anglican) for example, rests on three pillars. Scripture, Tradition AND Reason. But I confess, I am not exactly sure how they reconcile their Creedal acceptance of the Trinity with the tenant of Reason. Some, like John Shelby Spong (author of "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism") have their ways.

[marco]

[Replying to post 38 by Elijah John]


Yes, EJ, reason is a huge drawback. We are encouraged NOT to question, for blessed are they who believe and do not see. And those who questioned Jesus were rebuked with "a prophet goes unrecognised in his own land."


I think the absurdity of the Trinity was accepted by Tertullian, but he believed nonetheless. It is surprising a belief from the mists of an age where gods flew back and forth still holds sway in our modern society. But those who disdain the notion are perfectly capable of accepting ideas that are equally absurd. Perhaps when we attack the Trinity we should check that our own furniture is fit for the purpose.

[PinSeeker]

Nah. I mean, just saying something is really beyond our grasp is not to say it's not worth trying to understand.