CLEAR, BASIC CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR, BASIC CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
………………………………..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

Notice the use of the word 'three' in every declaration/description of the trinity. And, of course the word 'trinity' itself includes the understanding of three.

………………………………....

Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

((Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.))
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…� - 20:31.

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God! If they had heard this, there would have been no need for false witnesses to have Jesus immediately stoned to death.
………………………………...............

I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed long after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" is a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth in the OT as well as the NT.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear, incomplete references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) is a tragic error.

[brianbbs67]

I am, is actually, ehyeh asher ehyeh. Not Yod hay vod hay(YHVH)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

[tigger2]

C.

This challenge, (C) above, is mostly confined to the OT Scriptures, since it requires use of the only personal name of God: YHWH (transliterated ‘JEHOVAH’ – Ps. 83:18, KJV or "Jehovah" - Ex. 3:15, ASV; NEB; MLB; LB; KJIIV and MKJV; Byington; Young’s; and Darby or ‘Yahweh’ – Ex. 3:15, AT; JB; NJB; World English Bible).

God is named YHWH, which is mistranslated in most English Bibles as "LORD" (all capitals). Other Bibles transliterate YHWH as 'Yahweh,' 'Jehovah or Yehowah.' The KJV uses 'JEHOVAH' at Ps. 83:18, but 'LORD 'in nearly all the other 6000+ places it is found in the Hebrew manuscripts.

There is no other God but YHWH (Is. 45:5, 45:21; 46:9; Ps. 83:16-18). [See end note]

There are clear direct, undisputed statements that YHWH is the Father (e.g., Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." - ASV).

There are a number of personal names in scripture which mean "God is YHWH" (Elijah); "YHWH is God" (Joel).

But more important, there are a number of personal names in scripture which mean "YHWH is the Father" (e.g., Abijah; Abia; Joab). These names are also clear, direct undisputed statements of who YHWH, the only God, is: the Father.

So my scriptural challenge here, (C), is to
Please find a clear, direct, undisputed scriptural statement which is equivalent to 'Jesus is the Christ' or 'YHWH is the Father' (which really are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declares:

'YHWH is the Son,' or 'YHWH is the Firstborn,' or, 'YHWH is the Messiah (or "Christ"), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement (or personal name) that 'Jesus is YHWH' (the only God according to scripture).

Yes, it would most likely be found in the OT, but that is where the scriptures are which we have referred to! The OT is, of course the largest part of the Bible and is the only scripture known to Jesus and his followers during his lifetime on earth.

Nevertheless, it could still be found in personal names in the NT (as it was in the OT), since the only uses of God’s personal name found in still-existing NT manuscripts are in personal names and the phrase ‘Hallelujah’ (‘Praise Jehovah.’):

Some of the names in the NT which contain God's personal name: Uriah; Abijah ('The Father is Jehovah') NKJV, ASV; RSV, NRSV, JB, etc.; Jehoshaphat; Jehoram; Uzziah; Hezekiah; Josiah; Jeconiah; Ananias ['Jehovah is Gracious'] - "a common Jewish name, the same as Hananiah." - Today's Dictionary of the Bible, (Ananias, 'high priest at Jerusalem, A.D. 60' - Young's) - Acts 23:2; 24:1.

So people (including a high priest) were still being given personal names which had YHWH's personal name as part of their meaning in NT times. Also 'Elijah' (which means ‘God is Jehovah’) is used 30 times in the NT.

And in Luke 1:5 Zechariah; and Abijah NKJV, ASV; NASB; RSV; NRSV; JB; etc. This is the name of one of the 24 priestly divisions and named by Luke as such in the NT in connection with Zechariah the priest, John the Baptist's Father. This priestly division of Abijah (which means 'The Father is Jehovah') existed until the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

Therefore, there is no reason why personal names, even in the NT, should not have had the meaning of "The Son is YHWH" or the "Holy Spirit is YHWH" (just as so many were named "The Father is YHWH"). Except of course, the obvious one:

No Christian or Jew believed such a thing!

There are no such statements or meanings of personal names in any of the scriptures!

The one true Most High God simply has not revealed himself in any scriptural vision, representation, or dream as anything but a single person, the Father. The Jews never understood him in any other way. Jesus did not reveal him in any other way. The NT writers did not reveal him in any other way (other than by generalizations, "mystery" solving, allegorical interpretations, or disputed translating by trinitarian theologians). And the very first Christians (up to the second century A.D. at least) did not understand God in any other way.

If God were truly three persons, it would have been revealed clearly and repeatedly from the beginning. This is essential knowledge of God, and all worshipers of the true God have needed such knowledge from the beginning. God would not have withheld it from his chosen people throughout the thousands of years of his prophets and inspired scripture writers.
.........................................

End Note:

In the introduction to the New American Standard Bible (NASB), we find that it is intended to modernize the American Standard Version (ASV) which it praises highly for its accuracy (p. vi).

Furthermore, it admits that where the ASV has transliterated the Hebrew name of God (YHWH) as "Jehovah," the NASB has returned to the older practice of replacing the name (transliterated by OT scholars as "Yahweh" or more often,"Jehovah") with the mistranslated "LORD" (all capitals).

Deut. 4:35. "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD [YHWH], He is God; there is no other besides Him. NASB

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that Jehovah [YHWH] he is God; there is none else besides him. ASV
......................................
Deut. 4:39. "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other. NASB

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and lay it to thy heart, that Jehovah he is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else. ASV

...............................
2 kings 19:19, NASB "Now, O LORD our God, I pray, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that You alone, O LORD, are God."

2 Kings 19:19, ASV Now therefore, O Jehovah our God, save thou us, I beseech thee, out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou Jehovah art God alone.
..................................

Ps. 86:10, 11, NASB 10 For You are great and do wondrous deeds; You alone are God. 11 Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name.

Ps 86:10, 11, ASV 10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: Thou art God alone. 11 Teach me thy way, O Jehovah; I will walk in thy truth: Unite my heart to fear thy name.
........................................

Psalms 83:18 That they may know that You alone, whose name is the LORD, Are the Most High over all the earth. NASB

Psalms 83:18 That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth. ASV
..............................................
Isaiah 45:5, NASB "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5 ASV I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God.
....................................

Isaiah 45:21, NASB Is it not I, the LORD ? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
Isaiah 45:21 ASV who hath declared it of old? have not I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me.

............................................
Isaiah 45:22, NASB Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:22 ASV Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.

[polonius]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (I John 5:7)

RESPONSE: If you check a current reliable bible you will find that this passage was falsified and has been removed. I suggest you try the New Revised Standard Bible, a product of the World Council of Churches.

[tigger2]

I am, is actually, ehyeh asher ehyeh. Not Yod hay vod hay(YHVH)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Not only that, but ehyeh actually means "I will be" as it is properly translated everwhere else in Moses' writings (starting with Exodus 3:12).

[brianbbs67]

I am, is actually, ehyeh asher ehyeh. Not Yod hay vod hay(YHVH)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Not only that, but ehyeh actually means "I will be" as it is properly translated everwhere else in Moses' writings (starting with Exodus 3:12).

Yes, I will be that(which) I will be. I think God used this to show the Egyptians that they knew who He was and were ignoring it.

[Elijah John]

In Deuteronomy 6:5 -- yes, quoted directly by Jesus -- it says, you shall love the LORD your God..." LORD is in all capitals in both Matthew 22:37 and Deuteronomy 6:5 and reflects the original term YHWH, which really translates "I AM" in today's English.

Incidentally, Jesus used this many times in referring to Himself; there are seven great I AM statements made by Jesus. This is why the priests wanted to kill Him; they knew exactly what He was doing: claiming to be God. And He knew they knew exactly what He was doing. But I digress.

I am skeptical of John's Jesus "I am" statements being claims to Divinity. There, I said it. I said "I am skeptical". Am I claiming Divinity for myself?

Also, if Jesus actually said what John has him saying here, why are those "I AM" statements not found in the earlier Synoptic Gospels? Were they relying on John to come along later to make the claims on Jesus' behalf? Seems claims to Divinity are very important and extraordinary claims. Wouldn't it have been important for Matthew, Mark, and Luke's readership/audience to know these extraordinary and revolutionary claims? That is, if Jesus actually made them.

The term "Jehovah" only came to be around the beginning of the 12th century A.D. because the scribes, over time, merely inserted vowels into the original tetragrammation ("four letters," referring to YHWH). "LORD" is found in most of the English translations that have been produced over the past several centuries. The notable exception is the American Standard Version (1901), which uses the term “Jehovah� rather than “LORD.�

OK, then insert "Yahweh", or "Yehovah" or any other reasonable rendering of the Tetragrammaton "YHVH", or "YHWH".

If Jesus is said to lay the foundation why didn't he include himself?

You'll have to pardon me, here; I don't follow. Jesus didn't "lay the foundation." Rather, He is the cornerstone on which the foundation (consisting of the prophets and apostles) is laid and in Whom the whole building is being built (Ephesians 2).

"Cornerstone", "foundation", cornerstone of the foundation, no matter. Paul's foundation seems to have been "Christ". But Jesus own foundation seems to have been Father YHVH, the God of Israel, the Law and the Prophets..

As Tigger pointed out, Jesus quotes the Shema, and I would add taught repentance, and a return to the Father's mercy and embrace from the heart of the Father's commandments.

And the Shema is all about God being "One". Not even a hint of the Trinity in the Shema, not without resorting to outlandish rhetorical or linguistic gymnastics, anyway, as some Trinitarian apologists do.

But Israel, YHVH's people have always understood "one" to mean "one".

The Bible doesn't mention 3.

It does.

It does? In relation to the nature of God? Where?

Even Jesus own brother James, mentions the fact that God is one. And note, One not "Trinity" nor "three in one" or "one in three" persons.

[PinSeeker]

I am skeptical of John's Jesus "I am" statements being claims to Divinity.

Well, of course you are. But what does that mean? Other than the fact that that's your personal opinion, nothing, right?

There, I said it. I said "I am skeptical". Am I claiming Divinity for myself?

Well, as I'm sure you know, Jesus was not speaking in English. He said, for example, in effect, "I, YHWH, am the way, the truth, and the life." And for anyone not to acknowledge this is just... well, it's either lack of education, understanding, or abject denial (or all three).

Also, if Jesus actually said what John has him saying here, why are those "I AM" statements not found in the earlier Synoptic Gospels?

Because John's purpose -- or rather God's purpose through John -- was very different from the others. This is the complementary nature of the Synoptic Gospels (which I've mentioned many times before). John's purpose is not just to relate events in Jesus's ministry (as Luke's and Mark's were) or to reconcile problems that developed between Jewish Christians and the influx of Gentile believers (as Matthew's was) but to enable others to experience the blessedness that Jesus has just spoken of and the personal presence of God Himself in our midst.

Seems claims to Divinity are very important and extraordinary claims.

That's very true; Jesus did it in different ways in the other Gospels.

OK, then insert "Yahweh", or "Yehovah" or any other reasonable rendering of the Tetragrammaton "YHVH", or "YHWH".

"Reasonable." Yes. Reasonable according to who? You?

"Cornerstone", "foundation", cornerstone of the foundation, no matter.

To you. Right. Again, what does that even mean?

The Bible doesn't mention 3.

It does.

It does? In relation to the nature of God? Where?

As I said, the Bible never actually uses the word "three," but it's not necessary because it does in many places describe God clearly as existing in three distinct Persons. I could have provided more, but the one example I offered was:

"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God." (Paul, Ephesians 3:14-21; emphasis added)

You can count to three as well as I can, I'm sure.

YHVH's people have always understood "one" to mean "one"... Even Jesus own brother James, mentions the fact that God is one.

Right, the Godhead is one. But the Godhead consists of more than one Person, which was known from Genesis 1 (the beginning) on.

[myth-one.com]

The Bible doesn't mention 3.

It does.

It does? In relation to the nature of God? Where?

As I said, the Bible never actually uses the word "three," . . .

Actually, the King James Version uses the word "three" 511 times.

Here's one relating to the "nature of God":

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[tigger2]

Since human scholars (trinitarians) need to use the word 'three' in their descriptions of their God (see the first part of the OP), it would be expected, if the trinity were true, that the inspired writers of scripture would do the same in their writings for other humans. In fact, this word should have been as obvious throughout scripture as the use of the word 'one' for God!

As for 1 John 5:7, it has been universally known to be spurious for centuries.

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum ... p?t=35454

[myth-one.com]

Since human scholars (trinitarians) need to use the word 'three' in their descriptions of their God (see the first part of the OP), it would be expected, if the trinity were true, that the inspired writers of scripture would do the same in their writings for other humans. In fact, this word should have been as obvious throughout scripture as the use of the word 'one' for God!

As for 1 John 5:7, it has been universally known to be spurious for centuries.

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum ... p?t=35454

My previous post was in response to someone claimimg:

The Bible never actually uses the word "three," . . .

Which it does.

1 John 5:7 for example.