Has anyone fallen from grace?

[shnarkle]

If we can "fall from grace", isn't Christ's intercession ineffective?

The word "elect" means chosen of God. If God makes this choice, can Satan negate it, by working through a rebellious heart? How? How can one of the elect rebel after being saved by God's grace? Isn't the idea of regeneration based upon the converted heart by God?

Once God has chosen one of his elect, can Satan's accusation persuade God to hand them over to Satan? If so, then what power is there in Christ's death and resurrection? Have Christ's intercessory prayers on behalf of the elect become ineffective now that he has taken his place at the right hand of the Father? What is the likihood that God will not listen to his son? Does the father not trust the judgment of his son?

If the regenerate man has the power to condemn themselves, then they can overcome the election of God, and the intercession of Christ. Satan can appeal to one's autonomy the same way he appealed to Adam and Eve in order that one may condemn themselves. Therefore Christ's intercession fails to accomplish anything.

Therefore Christians can have no confidence in their own prayers. If autonomous man can overcome Christ's prayers, then hasn't Satan defeated Christ? Hasn't Satan has defeated the power of prayer?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 35 by shnarkle]

Isnt it obvious that Christianity hasn't reached a consensus on what the texts mean?

Christianity isn't meant to be a democracy. The texts aren't meant to be interpreted by consensus.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 39 by shnarkle]

Ok. I'm sure they all believe they're saved though? Is a skeptic in any worse position in eternity than any of these lost believers in name only?

A skeptic could be in better shape if they're seeking the truth.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 21 by onewithhim]

God chose people from before the creation of the world to be drawn to Christ knowing they would fall away?

That would make them more hated by God then the non elect.

You are mistaking me for someone else. I NEVER upheld the belief that God chose people before the creation of the world to either be saved or doomed.

That is the most ridiculous idea that there could be. It goes against everything in the Bible that shows God to be merciful and fair. He doesn't play games, as the people who think He chose everybody who would be saved before they were even born would have you believe.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 21 by onewithhim]

God chose people from before the creation of the world to be drawn to Christ knowing they would fall away?

That would make them more hated by God then the non elect.


New International Version (NIV)

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

New International Version (NIV)

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,�[a] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud"

They would be guilty of slandering the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10:26-29 New International Version (NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

So what is your point?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

I agree with your view on this, shnarkle. But what I find most interesting, and confusing, is that the so-called God-breathed scriptures leave much confusion on this subject. Fundamentalists believe one can lose his salvation (and they have their scriptures to support it), while the Baptists and others believe that "once saved, always saved" and they, also can argue a pretty good case for their belief. So, why did God allow such confusion on this important teaching? Could it be that the scriptures are not God-breathed or even edited by God? Could it be that there is no God outside the cranium of mankind?

I disagree that the "Once Saved Always Saved" people can give a good defense for their beliefs. It doesn't take long to disprove their assertions, as I have shown above by using even just one scripture. There are MANY that show that a person can fall away if they so choose.

God allows people to do what they want. If a person wants to turn against Him, He isn't going to force them to love Him. The Scriptures are pretty clear, if we take the time to examine them.

Many have examined the scriptures very carefully and compared scripture with scripture. The ones who believe that one cannot lose his salvation point to Romans 8:30 among others:

"...and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

This chain of salvation cannot be broken, one follows the other until those whom he called are in heaven. "Glorified" can mean only one thing, safely in heaven.

Did you never give thought to the idea that God had pre-arranged for a GROUP of co-rulers to be with His Messiah in heaven, but had not chosen each individual person who would eventually be glorified?

That would make much more sense. He purposed a group of people from the earth to reign with His Redeemer in heaven---the operative word is GROUP---but He never chose the individual members of this group.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by amortalman]

How many antichrists in heaven?

1 John 2:18-19 New International Version (NIV)

Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Where do you get your ideas? John said there were many "antichrists" even THEN, when he wrote that, back in the first century. And he didn't say they were in HEAVEN. What he was talking about was the SPIRIT of deception that was plentiful in that day, all around him, on the earth. That is what "antichrist" really meant---the way that demon-influenced people were persuading others to follow them away from the true congregation.

So why do you ask a question like that---"how many antichrists are in heaven"??

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

I agree with your view on this, shnarkle. But what I find most interesting, and confusing, is that the so-called God-breathed scriptures leave much confusion on this subject. Fundamentalists believe one can lose his salvation (and they have their scriptures to support it), while the Baptists and others believe that "once saved, always saved" and they, also can argue a pretty good case for their belief. So, why did God allow such confusion on this important teaching? Could it be that the scriptures are not God-breathed or even edited by God? Could it be that there is no God outside the cranium of mankind?

I disagree that the "Once Saved Always Saved" people can give a good defense for their beliefs. It doesn't take long to disprove their assertions, as I have shown above by using even just one scripture. There are MANY that show that a person can fall away if they so choose.

God allows people to do what they want. If a person wants to turn against Him, He isn't going to force them to love Him. The Scriptures are pretty clear, if we take the time to examine them.

Many have examined the scriptures very carefully and compared scripture with scripture. The ones who believe that one cannot lose his salvation point to Romans 8:30 among others:

"...and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

This chain of salvation cannot be broken, one follows the other until those whom he called are in heaven. "Glorified" can mean only one thing, safely in heaven.

Doesn't sound like Paul had much faith in the Spirit?

Acts 20:29-31 New International Version (NIV)

29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

I'm trying to follow your reasoning, but am having a difficult time doing so. Could you be clearer with what you are trying to say?

How could Paul be showing that he had "not much faith in the Spirit"? The Spirit would surely take care of true believers, but there is a great deal of evidence in the Scriptures that evil underminers of the truth would infiltrate the church and draw away people after themselves, thus beginning the rise of an apostate church that would almost obliterate the true believers. Jesus himself warned of this, and gave an illustration of it at Matthew 13:24-29; 37-43.

Notice that he said that the true believers would be evident "in the last days," or, "in the time of the end." This was even brought out by the prophet Daniel at Daniel 12:1-4 & verse 9.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by amortalman]

How many antichrists in heaven?

1 John 2:18-19 New International Version (NIV)

Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

There is such a close connection between 1 John 2:18-19 and Hebrews 6: 4-6 that I have to assume that you view those mentioned in Hebrews were never truly saved, to begin with, is that accurate?

I don't quite know what you're getting at by simply quoting 1 John 2:18-19. Are you claiming that the 1 John verses negate Romans 8:30? Just looking for clarity here.

May I interject?? It is evident by what the writer of Hebrews says that the people who fell away WERE "saved" by anyone's definition of being saved. HOW are people "saved"? Doesn't it have to do with the Holy Spirit bearing witness with a person's spirit that they are part of God's holy heavenly congregation? Hebrews 6 says plainly that those people had taken part in the Holy Spirit and the marvelous things to come in the new system of things. They had been "saved."

But they decided that they didn't want to worship God anymore, and, like Adam, rebelled and opted for their OWN opinions on what is right and what is wrong.


I remarked on Romans 8:30 above. Please take into consideration all of my posts, and any comment by you from thenceforth is welcome.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by amortalman]

How many antichrists in heaven?

1 John 2:18-19 New International Version (NIV)

Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

There is such a close connection between 1 John 2:18-19 and Hebrews 6: 4-6 that I have to assume that you view those mentioned in Hebrews were never truly saved, to begin with, is that accurate?

I don't quite know what you're getting at by simply quoting 1 John 2:18-19. Are you claiming that the 1 John verses negate Romans 8:30? Just looking for clarity here.

The texts indicate that they were believed to have been saved at some point.

Those who left would certainly have been brought into fellowship through the authority and baptism by the Apostles themselves.

The baptism of Spirit was given at the laying on of hands of these individuals.

Either they were giving a counterfeit Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit could be rejected after having been received.

Both options are very problematic for Christianity.

Why is rejecting the Holy Spirit and turning away from God "problematic" for Christianity? It is referred to many times in the Scriptures. People can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and then turn away. This is not a "problem." It is just a fact, and God certainly wishes that every person would be saved, but if they CHOOSE TO REBEL, that is their choice, and God will respect their choice.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by amortalman]

How many antichrists in heaven?

1 John 2:18-19 New International Version (NIV)

Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

There is such a close connection between 1 John 2:18-19 and Hebrews 6: 4-6 that I have to assume that you view those mentioned in Hebrews were never truly saved, to begin with, is that accurate?

I don't quite know what you're getting at by simply quoting 1 John 2:18-19. Are you claiming that the 1 John verses negate Romans 8:30? Just looking for clarity here.

The texts indicate that they were believed to have been saved at some point.

Those who left would certainly have been brought into fellowship through the authority and baptism by the Apostles themselves.

The baptism of Spirit was given at the laying on of hands of these individuals.

Either they were giving a counterfeit Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit could be rejected after having been received.

Both options are very problematic for Christianity.

There is one other option given by U.S. Southern Baptists and that is that they came very close to salvation without actually obtaining it. They "tasted" rather than consumed. You might say they courted Christ but walked away from the marriage.

But all this shows what I've said many times. There should not be dissenting interpretations among sincere students of the Bible. Almighty God could have done a much better job of editing his book. Dare we entertain the idea that this confusing book is strictly the work of men? I think truth demands it.

I disagree...with the Southern Baptists, and with you. When you taste something, you have partaken of it. How silly to mince words and beat about the bush, like the Baptists are doing. When something is clear, and it disagrees with their teaching, they find unbelievably lame excuses for such!

It is not Almighty God's fault for the disagreement among so-called sincere students of the Bible. If one really wants to find the truth, what one has to do is pray to the true God, JEHOVAH (see Psalm 83:18, KJV, and John 17:3), for wisdom, and examine the Scriptures thoroughly---not taking the word of anyone as to what is true. Compare versions, look at Interlinear Bibles, check out the Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society, read books by people with no irons in any particular fire such as BeDuhn's Truth in Translation, and find out first-hand what other religions might teach rather than taking someone's word for it.

The Bible is not confusing if you examine it and discover verses that have been corrupted by scribes and copyists, and understand just which manuscripts are valid and which are suspect. The EARLIEST ones would be the most reliable. People who are lazy won't even try to learn the truth.