Was Esau foreordained to be hated by God?

[shnarkle]

Paul clearly points out that what is foreknown is predestined, and while one could point out that the texts show God asking questions as if in ignorance, rhetorical questions are pervasive throughout both the Old and New Testaments; the figure Erotesis is especially common.

So the claim that God simply knew what Esau would do beforehand doesn't make much sense especially when Paul then asks the rhetorical question: "Is there unrighteouness with God?" There is no need or point in asking this question if God's reason for hating Esau is due to his foreknowledge of Esaus's future evil deeds.

Furthermore it isn't just Esau, but all of his descendants that are hated as well.

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste Mal.1:3

It's ironic that most people don't see this as being fair to Esau, but the real problem isn't that it isn't fair to Esau, but that God's love is completely unwarranted to Jacob. All of Adam's descendants are under the same condemnation due to his rebellion. But God has chosen Jacob. God has decided to love Jacob, and favor him.

God told Rebekah that the elder would serve the younger. Is there any chance that Esau could have proven himself worthy of his father's blessing or birthright? Evidently Isaac may have thought so given that he was willing to give Esau blessing despite God's

Does the word "chance" really have any meaning when it comes to God's promises?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 17 by ttruscott]

Doesn't seem that God is acting in any manner other than his own purpose.

Isaiah 46:9-10 New International Version (NIV)

9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

[shnarkle]

PCE contends that HIS hate cannot be on the future sinfulness of anyone because in the future on all have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.

I don't see how that follows from what you just stated. It seems to suggest just the opposite, no? Doesn't it make more sense to say, "His hate will be on the future sinfulness of anyone because in the future all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Because HE doesn't hate all. If all are equally sinful than HIS knowing cannot be applied to all or HE must hate all.

The problem is that the text is clearly pointing out that this isn't the reason for God's creation of vessels fitted for destruction, or for hating Esau. He explicitly points out that it doesn't have anything to do with what Esau ever did.

Ahhhh, and may folk are comfort about with this explanation...but not me because if there was no reason found in Esau's life to hate him then he is hated though innocent of deserving that hate (though not innocent of sin) considering those who are just as sinful are not hated. And hating some and loving others for no reason is anathema to me. Then there is Jn 3:8 which tells us that unbelievers are NOT CONDEMNED for their sin...

Yet I agree that Esau and Jacob did nothing their lives on earth that could have changed their fates as loved or hated, as saved or unsaved, as elect or non-elect, in the least. BUT the RULES of not being saved by merit in life ARE NOT TO BE APPLIED to the process of election which must be merit based or innocent people, innocent of all sin, are passed over for election to salvation since it happened before the foundation of the earth when we chose our FATES.

Whatever it is that you're attempting to present is considerably more complicated than I can ever begin to comprehend. I appreciate your patience in trying to convey it to me.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

It is certainly true Esau was foreordained to be hated by God because other scriptures support it. This God toys with people like clay to suit his purpose as this passage from the Romans makes very clear:

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.� 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would [h]stand, not because of works but [j]because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.� 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.�

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.� 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed [k]throughout the whole earth.� 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?� 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,� will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory..." Rom.9:9-23

A brief look at verse 19 and 20 again: 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?� 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?

This verse may be the defining verse that holds believer's minds captive to their particular dogma. Their God can be a bully and tyrant but they fear to question him else he might smite them with boils or something much worse.

This is the real God that some Christians get so mushy over. They obviously feel that they are vessels of honor. They can rightly say, according to their Holy Book, that they are chosen by God and enjoy a privileged future. But what if you are not one of the chosen ones, along with the billions of others like yourself? Then your forever future looks rather grim.

Very good points! Although it isn't really that God is a tyrant or bully, but that it's his clay to do with as he pleases. What's so wrong with that? The irony is in not seeing that private property rights extend no further than God's. The tyrant only emerges within a pantheon of gods. This is a strictly monotheistic situation so he doesn't have to bully anyone.

[ttruscott]

Although it isn't really that God is a tyrant or bully, but that it's his clay to do with as he pleases. What's so wrong with that?

The crux of PCE is that GOD is neither tyrant nor bully to humans but gives them lives perfectly in accord with their own free will choices, whether to put their faith in HIM in case they should ever need salvation from sin or to renounce HIM as a false god and a liar knowing full well that if HE ever proved HE was GOD that they were indeed condemned to eternal suffering.

HE is the perfect Judge of the eternally criminal and
HE is the perfect Father, disciplining HIS children.
Not everyone is HIS child and not everyone is condemned for their sins.
HE never treats us as objects HE possesses.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 23 by ttruscott]

Eternally criminal doesn't exist in a created reality subject to time.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 23 by ttruscott]

Eternally criminal doesn't exist in a created reality subject to time.

Certainly given to the didactic tonight, eh? Prove this statement please.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

It is certainly true Esau was foreordained to be hated by God because other scriptures support it. This God toys with people like clay to suit his purpose as this passage from the Romans makes very clear:

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.� 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would [h]stand, not because of works but [j]because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.� 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.�

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.� 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed [k]throughout the whole earth.� 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?� 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,� will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory..." Rom.9:9-23

A brief look at verse 19 and 20 again: 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?� 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?

This verse may be the defining verse that holds believer's minds captive to their particular dogma. Their God can be a bully and tyrant but they fear to question him else he might smite them with boils or something much worse.

This is the real God that some Christians get so mushy over. They obviously feel that they are vessels of honor. They can rightly say, according to their Holy Book, that they are chosen by God and enjoy a privileged future. But what if you are not one of the chosen ones, along with the billions of others like yourself? Then your forever future looks rather grim.

Very good points! Although it isn't really that God is a tyrant or bully, but that it's his clay to do with as he pleases. What's so wrong with that?

Here's what's so wrong with that - People are quite different than clay. They have feelings, emotions, and if you pinch them it hurts. A God that creates one person for honor and another for dishonor, or raises one up to be king and another to be humiliated and destroyed is a tyrant. The irony is that this God is presented as being infinite in love and compassion.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 25 by ttruscott]

All was created.

New International Version (NIV)

Psalm 148
1 Praise the Lord.[a]
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
praise him in the heights above.
2 Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3 Praise him, sun and moon;
praise him, all you shining stars.
4 Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies.
5 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for at his command they were created,

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 26 by amortalman]

it isn't really that God is a tyrant or bully, but that it's his clay to do with as he pleases. What's so wrong with that?

Here's what's so wrong with that - People are quite different than clay. They have feelings, emotions, and if you pinch them it hurts. A God that creates one person for honor and another for dishonor, or raises one up to be king and another to be humiliated and destroyed is a tyrant.

You haven't demonstrated that God is a tyrant or that there's anything wrong with creating one for honor and another for dishonor. You've simply made an assertion with nothing to back it up.

I'm not suggesting that we are identical to clay. However, our bodies are essentially nothing but animated dirt so the comparison is accurate as far as that goes. The fault is not in God, but in those who identify with the clay they're made from. Those who do, are going to be uncomfortable with these ramifications while those who don't couldn't care less.

The irony is that this God is presented as being infinite in love and compassion.

No, the irony is in not comprehending the difference between what is created and the nature of being. Esau is not just supplanted by Jacob, but by Israel as well.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 28 by shnarkle]

And Israel by the Gentile believers.


Hebrews 13:9-10 New International Version (NIV)

9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so. 10 We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat.

Colossians 2:16-23 New International Version (NIV)

Freedom From Human Rules
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!�? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

New International Version (NIV)

Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.�[a]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.