Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

[shnarkle]

Did God raise up Pharaoh for the wrong purpose, or was magnifying his own glory a sufficient purpose for raising up Pharaoh? (Romans 9:17)

How is is possible for Pharaoh to have repented and allowed Israel to depart in peace, if he was raised up for this purpose?

God actively hardened Pharaoh's heart that he might judge e.g. "lay his hand upon" Egypt. Could Pharaoh have overcome God's hardening of his heart? How?

The king's heart is in the hands of the LORD, as the rivers of water, he turns it whithersoever he will Proverbs 21:1

There is no question that Pharaoh hardened his own heart as is indicated in Ex. 8:15,32. Pharaoh is a responsible moral agent, but this doesn't answer the question of whether or not it was possible for Pharaoh to soften his own heart and repent despite God's will?

If Pharoah had repented of his sins and turned Israel free, how could God's word have been fulfilled?

Is it possible for sinful or even righteous man to thwart God's declared intent?

If he did this to Pharaoh, why wouldn't he do it to the rest of rebellious humanity?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 34 by JehovahsWitness]

You're free to believe whatever you please. I'm simply pointing out that there is no biblical support for a number of these beliefs.

Yes I agree; there is certainly no support for the teaching that Christ came ....

...to fulfill a law that was created by any Christian denomination.

You are right! I agree. Indeed I found your statement particularly well expressed...

Christ came to fulfill the Mosaic law, and no other law, principle, rules, dogmatic assumptions of any Christian denomination.

I agree with you 100% I couldn't have out it better myself, you are absolutely correct and I agree with you.




JW

Quite an interesting revelation. Some of the members of the local kingdom hall will find this post of yours quite interesting, or at least just as intriguing as I do, in that they don't agree with any of what I posted. The reason I will be interested in showing them this reply is because they have assured me that all members of the Jehovah's Witnesses believe the exact same thing.

It's also worth noting that when I post "biblical support", you change it to "support", and then leave it with "the teaching that Christ came..." Ironic, that what I posted is changed, and what the topic of this thread is questioning what God actually says.

I always find it intriguing to see how what I post is changed. I would be surprised if this phenomena was confined to just my posts.

[ttruscott]

Deliberately rejecting the law is not blasphemy. Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover intentional sin of any kind.

Umm, all sin is deliberate or how can it be a sin without the prerequisite mens rea?

It is who is sinning, in Christ or not in Christ, that settles what sin His sacrifice covers.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 41 by shnarkle]

Yes I agree you are right.

It's also worth noting that when I post "biblical support", you change it to "support",

I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that that I was wrong and I retract what I wrote there in favor of "biblical support". Thank you for pointing that out. You were right to do so.


I'm very sorry.






Regards


JW

[shnarkle]

Umm, all sin is deliberate or how can it be a sin without the prerequisite mens rea?

No, the Mosaic law clearly points out that one offers sacrifice only when one sins unintentionally.

Here are just a few examples from Leviticus 5:

"15 Whenever you commit wrongdoing, unintentionally..."
"17 If you sin by breaking any of the Lord’s commands, but without realizing it,.."

When one sins intentionally, the remedy was never sacrifice, but "teshuva" which is repentance and restitution. There is only one exception to this, but I don't recall what it is. It's somewhere in the first few chapters of Numbers; somewhere around Numbers 5 or 6.

This is a fundamental principle of the Mosaic law which Christ came to fulfill. He even points it out from the cross when he says, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

The author of the book of Hebrews reiterates this fundamental principle when he points out that one can in no way rely upon Christ's sacrifice when one has come to a saving knowledge of the truth, but then sins intentionally(Heb. 10:26).

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 20 by ttruscott]

How did YHWH firm up his resolve? That HE removed Pharoah's fear of GODly retribution which allowed him to go forth with a renewed commitment against YHWH's people is the most obvious probability

Ohhh? Do please explain. Did GOD whisper in Pharaoh's ear, or send him a dream vision, or otherwise communicate to Pharaoh that Pharaoh would be safe from God? Or remove his capacity to feel fear?
It seems to me here that you are suggesting that either God told Pharaoh a lie, or lobotomised him...but he totes didn't force him to continue enslaving the Hebrews, no sirree bob!

[postroad]

[Replying to post 45 by rikuoamero]

Same as in this text.

Joshua 11:18-20 New International Version (NIV)

18 Joshua waged war against all these kings for a long time. 19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

And here.

Exodus 12:35-36 New International Version (NIV)

35 The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. 36 The Lord had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.

Considering the crap they had endured with all the plagues that they as a nation gave over their wealth out of their own evil desires.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 45 by rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 20 by ttruscott]

[quote:9d3d9b8d07]How did YHWH firm up his resolve? That HE removed Pharoah\'s fear of GODly retribution which allowed him to go forth with a renewed commitment against YHWH\'s people is the most obvious probability[/quote:9d3d9b8d07]

Ohhh? Do please explain. Did GOD whisper in Pharaoh\'s ear, or send him a dream vision, or otherwise communicate to Pharaoh that Pharaoh would be safe from God? Or remove his capacity to feel fear?
It seems to me here that you are suggesting that either God told Pharaoh a lie, or lobotomised him...but he totes didn\'t force him to continue enslaving the Hebrews, no sirree bob!

This is one of my favorite subjects within this thread. I think the text points to how this all occurred. First off YHVH tells Moses that He's going to harden Pharaoh's heart so Moses already knows there's no point in fighting any of this, but when he then asks YHVH for his name which can be effectively rendered as "I AM", Moses should have immediately seen that YHVH was messing with him.

So when Pharaoh asks Moses who this God is that is requesting for all of the children of Israel to take a field trip out into the dessert to worship, it should come as no surprise to anyone that his response is going to tick Pharaoh off.

It was probably the inspiration for Abbott and Costello's "Who's On First" routine.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 47 by shnarkle]

I wonder who wrote the Pentateuch?