Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

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shnarkle
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Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

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Post by shnarkle »

Did God raise up Pharaoh for the wrong purpose, or was magnifying his own glory a sufficient purpose for raising up Pharaoh? (Romans 9:17)

How is is possible for Pharaoh to have repented and allowed Israel to depart in peace, if he was raised up for this purpose?

God actively hardened Pharaoh's heart that he might judge e.g. "lay his hand upon" Egypt. Could Pharaoh have overcome God's hardening of his heart? How?
The king's heart is in the hands of the LORD, as the rivers of water, he turns it whithersoever he will Proverbs 21:1
There is no question that Pharaoh hardened his own heart as is indicated in Ex. 8:15,32. Pharaoh is a responsible moral agent, but this doesn't answer the question of whether or not it was possible for Pharaoh to soften his own heart and repent despite God's will?

If Pharoah had repented of his sins and turned Israel free, how could God's word have been fulfilled?

Is it possible for sinful or even righteous man to thwart God's declared intent?

If he did this to Pharaoh, why wouldn't he do it to the rest of rebellious humanity?

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ttruscott
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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #31

Post by ttruscott »

twobitsworth wrote:Like God hardening Pharaoh's heart passages, the wording is crystal clear....
Crystal clear? Then why do people still claim that YHWH changed Pharaoh's mind and made him hate the Israelites?

There IS a difference between being stubborn and being determined, eh? It all depends on YOUR POV and which side of the door you are on whether the person guarding it is very resolute and determined or a stubborn fool. The Hebrew of Exodus translated as hardened is chazaq: Strong's Concordance: H2388. chazaq: to be or grow firm or strong, strengthen. It has no moral connotation except in context which in this case refers to Pharaoh's desire to annihilate the Israelites as becoming stronger.

His mind was not changed to hate them, it was just allowed or encouraged to become resolute and determined so it become apparent as to his full commitment.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #32

Post by JehovahsWitness »

shnarkle wrote: I know of no Christian denomination that claims they no longer sin.

This is true. Jehovah's Witneses believe that while we can avoid certain behaviours that God hates such as murder and sexual immorality, this doesn't mean we are without sin (sinless). Thus the need for the ransom sacrifice of Jesus.



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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #33

Post by shnarkle »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Jehovah's Witneses believe that while we can avoid certain behaviours that God hates such as murder and sexual immorality, this doesn't mean we are without sin (sinless). Thus the need for the ransom sacrifice of Jesus.
Christ's sacrifice will not save anyone, it only pays the price for sin. Those who continue to sin must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sin, but this spotlights the fact that one can in no way claim that "faith has come" to them.

To continue to rely upon one's own "will and effort" is to place oneself back under the Old Testament conditions, and thus "under the law".

When faith arrives, then the reborn new creature in Christ "walks after the Spirit, and doesn't fulfill the lusts of the flesh". This is explicitly what does away with the sacrificial system, but it is only for those to whom it has been granted. With regards to Israel and the Gentiles it is granted, but it is not a wholesale gift as this would necessitate that no one would be damned, and we can see that Paul doesn't believe that for a minute.


The problem with your belief is that murder and sexual immorality are not covered by sacrifice. Christ didn't come to fulfill a law that was created by any Christian denomination. Christ came to fulfill the Mosaic law which explicitly points out that murder and sexaul immorality as well as any intentional sin is not remedied by sacrifice. Any and all intentional sin that is retained through unrepentance is claimed, and effectively damns those who choose to retain them. It is self condemnation.

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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #34

Post by JehovahsWitness »

shnarkle wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Jehovah's Witneses believe that while we can avoid certain behaviours that God hates such as murder and sexual immorality, this doesn't mean we are without sin (sinless). Thus the need for the ransom sacrifice of Jesus.
Christ's sacrifice will not save anyone, it only pays the price for sin.
Yes I expressed myself badly, you are correct better to say "Christ's sacrifice pays the price for sin" that's what I believe too.
shnarkle wrote:
The problem with your belief is that murder and sexual immorality are not covered by sacrifice.
If I gave that impression I was wrong to, I don't believe murder and sexual immorality are not covered by sacrifice at all. I don't believe God encourages us to murder or rape babies and there is no commande to do such things in the bible in order to please Him, but Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the holy spirit, so no I don't believe murder and sexual immorality are not covered by sacrifice



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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #35

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 34 by JehovahsWitness]

You're free to believe whatever you please. I'm simply pointing out that there is no biblical support for a number of these beliefs.

Christ came to fulfill the Mosaic law, and no other law, principle, rules, dogmatic assumptions of any Christian denomination.

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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #36

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 33 by shnarkle]

Will Christ's sacrifice cover the blasphemy a Jew commits by deliberately rejecting the Law?

Would God really put them in a position where they deliberately blaspheme him in order to be saved?

Numbers 15:29-31 New International Version (NIV)

29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’�

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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #37

Post by JehovahsWitness »

shnarkle wrote: [Replying to post 34 by JehovahsWitness]

You're free to believe whatever you please. I'm simply pointing out that there is no biblical support for a number of these beliefs.

Yes I agree; there is certainly no support for the teaching that Christ came ....

shnarkle wrote:
...to fulfill a law that was created by any Christian denomination.


You are right! I agree. Indeed I found your statement particularly well expressed...

shnarkle wrote:

Christ came to fulfill the Mosaic law, and no other law, principle, rules, dogmatic assumptions of any Christian denomination.

I agree with you 100% I couldn't have out it better myself, you are absolutely correct and I agree with you.




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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #38

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 35 by shnarkle]

Perhaps Jesus had to remove overturn blasphemy of God as an unforgivable sin in order to overcome this theological difficulty?

Mark 3:28-30 New International Version (NIV)

28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.�

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.�

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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #39

Post by twobitsworth »

[Replying to ttruscott]

Here is the passage in Exodus,

18 And Moses went and returned to Jethro his father in law, and said unto him, Let me go, I pray thee, and return unto my brethren which are in Egypt, and see whether they be yet alive. And Jethro said to Moses, Go in peace.

19 And the Lord said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life.

20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.

21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go

We see that God taught Moses some tricks to show the Egyptians as signs, and sent him on his way to Egypt. God tells Moses that he, God, would harden Pharaoh's heart. These are the words "I will harden his heart". Those words are not confusing. God would not have said he would harden Pharaoh's heart if it was already hardened against God--to say that makes God a buffoon. Like saying I will institute gravity to keep him from lifting off the planet....when it has already been created. In order for Gods plan to work he had to harden Pharaoh's heart.

You are right to point out the resistance to the Word of God on this issue, where there are people who would fight against the very words of God...to wrest control from God and instead maintain a human desire for control. You have probably noticed that some of the same folks who argue that the plain words above, mean something other that what they say.....will in the next instance fall all over themselves to point out the critical need to accept the word exactly as is, going to the ancient meaning of a word, the syntax, the context, the time of day, etc. This irony is what comes of creating a religious belief first, then force fitting the Word to create harmony.

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Re: Is this really the words of God, or not?

Post #40

Post by shnarkle »

postroad wrote:

Will Christ's sacrifice cover the blasphemy a Jew commits by deliberately rejecting the Law?
Deliberately rejecting the law is not blasphemy. Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover intentional sin of any kind.
Would God really put them in a position where they deliberately blaspheme him in order to be saved?
No. They're already in that position.
Numbers 15:29-31 New International Version (NIV)

29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’�
Very true! Good points.

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