Why Would God Care What We Believe?

[ElCodeMonkey]

Let's assume the typical Christian orthodox of Jesus dying for our sins is true and that we must believe in him to be saved. I don't care to prove that it's true or not in this thread--we''ll just assume it is--but rather WHY does God care what we believe? Why would God be so intent on ensuring we believe something rather than only being intent on ensuring what we physically do with our lives? I'm not looking for "it's both" or the like, I'm wondering why God cares about the former at all. Why would our thoughts even matter to God and not only our actions?

[Matthew S Islam]

Why propose such an obviously false dichotomy if the ultimate goal is truth?

The OP asked a theological question and my response was intended to meet his specific inquiry.

No human who has ever lived on planet earth has ever been able to authenticate any supposed revelation from any God. In fact, those who have made such claims have been shown to have been sorely mistaken. What they thought was truth turned out to be demonstrably false.

In fact, almost all religious revelations and proclamations have been demonstrated to be false. The few that have just happened to have turned out to be true do not exceed what should be expected by dumb luck guessing.

So there is no authentic revelation from any God that anyone can point to. Even the most devout theists are in grave disagreement with each other on the things they claim to be revealed truths from their God.

So there is no such thing as authentic revelation from any God.

Ok, let's briefly deal with this, God-Willing.

First off, I'm a Muslim, so when I used the term "authentic revelation", I was actually intending the Quran and the authentic Sunnah. The Muslims collectively view the Quran as an authentic revelation from Allah (God) to the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). The Muslim scholars have always maintained that the Quran is the Speech of Allah; it's was preserved textually and orally; it has variety of Divine qualities; and its correct interpretation is infallible.

As for Theists disagreeing with each other, that bears no weight on the truthfulness of any religious tradition. As mentioned in my previous post, God has granted Humans the ability to truth-seek, but also placed within us greedy desires which interfere with our decision making.
Furthermore, we know from the Seerah (biography of Muhammad and the early community) that the Prophet preached for around 10 years to a Theist audience in Makkah before his emigration to Madinah. Being a Theist is almost irrelevant when it comes to religious guidance. In fact, sometimes dealing with a Theist is worse because of their baggage and subjective expectations.

And the only alternative to that is not greedy desires and biases. So you got that wrong as well. So clearly there''s no authentic revelation in your proposal. You've already created a false dichotomy that is clearly false so it clearly cannot be due to authentic revelation from any god.

Again, my previous post wasn't a formal invitation to my religion, nor was I explaining my understanding of what constitutes "authentic revelation". It was a theological response to the OP's doubts.

I'm also aware that I haven't established the Divine origins of the Quran in this post either. It's not my intention to demonstrate the authenticity or corruption of any religious tradition within this thread. If you're interested in that topic, perhaps we can continue elsewhere.

Peace

[Divine Insight]

First off, I'm a Muslim, so when I used the term "authentic revelation", I was actually intending the Quran and the authentic Sunnah. The Muslims collectively view the Quran as an authentic revelation from Allah (God) to the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). The Muslim scholars have always maintained that the Quran is the Speech of Allah; it's was preserved textually and orally; it has variety of Divine qualities; and its correct interpretation is infallible.

Fundamental Christians make the same claim about their Christian Bible.

Moreover, Muslims disagree among themselves on what a "correct interpretation" of the Qur'an would be. So clearly the Qur'an is nothing special.

I'm also aware that I haven't established the Divine origins of the Quran in this post either. It's not my intention to demonstrate the authenticity or corruption of any religious tradition within this thread. If you're interested in that topic, perhaps we can continue elsewhere.

Peace

I have no interest in wasting time listening to theists apologies for their obviously flawed and failed religious doctrine. Face it, even the Muslims can't convince each other of this, just like the Christians can't convince each other either.

All of the Abrahamic religions are obvious proven failures when it comes to maintaining any authenticity. And none of them are free from corruption.

We already know this as well as we know that there cannot be a whole number solution to the square root of 2.

So for you to even suggest that you could achieve such goal is absurd. That's already been proven to be impossible.

Having said that, I realize there exist theists who haven't yet been able to see this. Like I say, Christian Fundamentalism is full of them. They will argue with you to their grave that there Holy Bible is absolutely infallible. So this kind of rhetoric is not new with Islam. The Christians had already beat the Muslims to that game. Muhammad was about 600 years too late to play that game.

[ttruscott]

Is this an adequate comparison to why you believe God cares what we think? He wants our emotional investment in him?

Yes, indeed. IN fact I consider that in its deepest meaning of communion, our marriage to HIM is the whole purpose of our creation.

Okay, great. So if God wants this emotional connection, what does this have to do with believing Jesus is God or that Jesus died for sins?

GOD had a problem...IF HE showed HIMself to HIS creation in all HIS glory, then everyone would indeed be well please to accept HIM as their GOD and to marry HIM...but was that for HIS character and the nature of HIS plans for them or was it because it would be extremely foolish to choose otherwise in light of the proof.

GOD wanted to create a Church, a congregation of people in full loving, holy communion with HIM in heaven, a full loving marriage, BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE THERE WITH HIM IN THAT REALITY! They must have truly wanted love, holiness and heaven as HE defines it...NOT JUST BECAUSE HE BLAZED THEM WITH HIS GLORY.

How did HE find all the people in HIS creation who would like to live that way, after HE taught them all about it and all about the alternatives? HE asked them to make a true free will decision to accept HIM as their GOD and to accept HIS purpose for their creation, ie, the heavenly marriage, ie, HIS proposal to us.

How did HE ensure they really wanted that and were not just pushed into it by HIS being all GODlike and all? Looking the same as anyone else, HE offered no proof at all that HE was divine and that HE could take us to heaven or help us learn to be pure, holy and loving but asked us to accept this on faith, ie the hope that it was all true because we liked what we heard so well and wanted it so much, we didn't need proof to accept it. Faith = hope, of the unseen, the unproven, hope in our eternal life in heaven with GOD in full loving, holy marriage, ie fulfilling HIS reason for our creation.

By not proving HIMself overwhelmingly but hiding HIS glory, GOD allows us each to choose where to put our faith, by which we actually define our own reality for ourselves, the world view we live in which also defines both God and our relationship with Him from our point of view. "This is what I believe" means "This is the way I hope the reality of the universe is." 2 Corinthians 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight (ie proof).

To answer specifically, it is our faith, what you call our belief, that results from our decisions about HIM that create the possibility of the emotional bond. Those who never put their faith in HIM were condemned immediately as unable to be forgiven or to create the emotional bond HE was looking for, Jn 3:18. And without faith, it is impossible to form a loving bond with HIM.

[JehovahsWitness]

First of all, all things being equal it is inevitable that ones actions will be worse than those that believe.

Please provide evidence that one who believes Jesus is God and that he died for your sins will yield actions that God cares about that those who do not believe them would not perform.

Why are you asking for evidence? The OP asks a theological question which I treated as such presenting the rationale for my conclusions. The basic principles of that rationale can be applied to any supposition, including the above. If you don't want to address the answers presented that's fine but I took the goalposts to have been in theology, where the support are philosophical not empirical.

You asked about the feelings of an invisible omnipotent creator, I answered the question based on my beliefs drawn from scripture. If you want a printout from a brainscan of that God to test his reaction to an individuals actions so a panel of scientists can examine them and come to a consensus, you might need to ask in another forum.


JW

[Matthew S Islam]

So all you've really said here is a mere reiteration that God cares what we think (i.e. whether in our minds we believe a truth or a falsehood). You don't explain why that actually matters. The last sentence perhaps partially explains why it might matter, but I've already stated that if the actions are equivalent from one who believes the falsehood and one who believes the lie (i.e. it's NOT indicative of behavior) why would the thought matter at all? Why doesn't he simply care for the actions themselves? Who cares if one person thinks the sky is blue and another thinks it's red? Surely there are plenty of things we believe that are right and plenty we believe that are wrong. So why is he so intently focused on us believing Jesus is God or that Jesus died for our sins? These two beliefs are in no way indicative of behavior. Find any two Christians believing those two things and you'll see a wide array of behaviors which differ from each other in some ways and match atheists in others. It's not a predictive belief. So why does God care if we believe them?

God cares about our religion/theology because:

1) Life is a test (beliefs and actions)
2) Truth-seeking demands intellectual/spiritual sincerity
3) God distinguishes His sincere devotees from the hypocrites

And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." Quran 5:48

[ElCodeMonkey]

Why are you asking for evidence? The OP asks a theological question which I treated as such presenting the rationale for my conclusions. The basic principles of that rationale can be applied to any supposition, including the above. If you don't want to address the answers presented that's fine but I took the goalposts to have been in theology, where the support are philosophical not empirical.

If the rationale for the answer of a theological question includes verifiable statements, then those statements should be backed by evidence. Even theological questions can have supporting evidence via scripture, but you made a statement that essentially says atheists will not perform certain actions that God desires because they do not believe what God requires. So please back that up and substantiate your claim.

You asked about the feelings of an invisible omnipotent creator, I answered the question based on my beliefs drawn from scripture. If you want a printout from a brainscan of that God to test his reaction to an individuals actions so a panel of scientists can examine them and come to a consensus, you might need to ask in another forum.

I don't think a brain scan is necessary in order for you to back your claim that atheists do not perform the same actions as Christians. If you cannot back your claim, why do you believe it?

[ElCodeMonkey]

God cares about our religion/theology because:

1) Life is a test (beliefs and actions)

So why is it a test of beliefs? Why does he care about beliefs?

2) Truth-seeking demands intellectual/spiritual sincerity

I agree, but why does this have anything to do with believing Jesus is God and died for your sins? I don't presume you even believe that yourself if you're Muslim. What do Muslims require? That you believe in the Quran, God's name is Allah, and Mohammad was his prophet? Why require such beliefs rather than focusing instead on one's actions or, perhaps, moral beliefs rather than religious doctrine beliefs? Why does God care so much for things that have zero impact on anything?

3) God distinguishes His sincere devotees from the hypocrites

Sure, but why based upon beliefs rather than actions?

[JehovahsWitness]

Even theological questions can have supporting evidence via scripture, but you made a statement that essentially says atheists will not perform certain actions that God desires because they do not believe what God requires. So please back that up and substantiate your claim

Emphasis MINE

I believe I did provide scriptural support for my statement:

First of all, all things being equal it is inevitable that ones actions will be worse than those that believe. Worse by Gods standards that is, as the first and most fundamental principle of divine standards is "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart".

JW



NOTE I don't presume to speak for God what I post is based on what I believe God has revealed to us in scripture.

HEBREWS 11:6


Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him - NWT

As I said in my earlier post, biblically belief/thoughts, feelings and motives must be a precursor for all actions if those actions are to be acceptable to God. Those are His standards. The "infidel" the faithless, cannot meet this standard thus their actions no matter how "good"they themselves might judge them to be, are substandard.


I would add that while most non-psychopaths have a conscience which the bible speaks of as a Godgiven inborn "law" that moderates our actions and pushes humans to act in a way that reflects to some degree His qualities, (showing compassion, aiding our fellow man, contributing in a positive way to the lives of others). These "good" actions, while commendable, do not of themselves negate the necessity of obeying what Jesus referred to as "the greatest commandement". Not least because they are often undertaken instead of, rather than as well as, doing the will of God (see Mat 7:22-23). In short, "good actions" may be able to please God to a degree but one cannot please him "well" unless one both believes what is true and acts in harmony with those beliefs.


PLEASE NOTE : I explicitly stated my posts to be statements of belief (ie faith based statements) based on [ my understanding] of the bible.




RELATED POSTS


Why is God not satisfied with good actions devoid of belief or godly devotion?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 822#951822

Is the "greatest commandment" a threat?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 379#844379

[postroad]

The Christian God desires to have everyone come under judgement.

He acomplishes this by tricking people into agreements they are unable to fulfill.

[ttruscott]

The Christian God desires to have everyone come under judgement.

He acomplishes this by tricking people into agreements they are unable to fulfill.

Since this seems to contradict the redemption of elect sinners in Christ which is a common Christian topic, I will only say that many of the sinners on earth believe that are not evil, a pov they hold until it is proven to them they must be evil or they could and would fulfill the covenants they are within. The law is for the purpose only to convict of sin...