Did Jesus preach salvtion by "works"?

[Elijah John]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7.21

-Is obedience to the will of God "works"?

-Is Jesus preaching salvation by "works" here?

-How does this verse, this lesson of Jesus, fit in with Paul's notion that those who seek salvation by works of the Law are "under a curse"?

[ttruscott]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7.21

Is obedience to the will of God "works"?

Doing the will of the Father is not the same as obedience to the will of God as a work since it is a product of love, not obedience to the law, that is, acts that naturally rise of the the hallowed soul.

Doing is not the same as obedience even if it conforms to obedience. It is the intent that separates. By the law no one is justified does not equal faith without good works is dead. Good works which prove holy intent ≠ the law which was given to convict for guilt for sin.

Is Jesus preaching salvation by "works" here?

No, He is defining the parameters of the nature of those who are eligible to enter the heavenly state...NOT what they have to do which is nothing.

How does this verse, this lesson of Jesus, fit in with Paul's notion that those who seek salvation by works of the Law are "under a curse"?

Jesus defines the person who can enter the heavenly state while Paul is coming from the otherside, defining those who cannot.

[showme]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7.21

-Is obedience to the will of God "works"?

-Is Jesus preaching salvation by "works" here?

-How does this verse, this lesson of Jesus, fit in with Paul's notion that those who seek salvation by works of the Law are "under a curse"?

Well, as Paul was given a curse, a gift from Satan, I would think that his followers are the ones in trouble. As for "works", "good fruit, if you don't have it, you will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10) & (Matthew 13:39-42) & (Matthew 25:41-46).

[brianbbs67]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7.21

-Is obedience to the will of God "works"?

-Is Jesus preaching salvation by "works" here?

-How does this verse, this lesson of Jesus, fit in with Paul's notion that those who seek salvation by works of the Law are "under a curse"?

One would do well to read at least 7:12-24. Emphasis on 23."I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'

I am compiling a list of Christs commands to us, if we follow him. The first group I quickly put together was "obey the law and commandments". I only used the 4 gospels. I only went thru them once. I find so far 20 in Matthew. 22 in Mark. 17 in Luke. And 17 in John. Seems an important theme to me.

[Divine Insight]

Matthew 25:46 And these (the unrighteous) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

There's nothing here that suggests that the unrighteous will be forgiven. To the contrary it clearly states that the righteous will go into eternal life.

So a person's own righteousness is what earns them eternal life. Nothing else.

In fact, if there are contradictory claims in these theological texts, then clearly the theology is inconsistent and is not maintaining a single coherent claim. I personally have accepted the truth of the latter and no longer see any reason to view these ancient texts as representing anything coherent or trustworthy.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by brianbbs67]

That would be a good topic Brian, if you could put the list in debate form. Or tac on a relevant queston for debate.

I hope you will share your list with us.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by brianbbs67]

That would be a good topic Brian, if you could put the list in debate form. Or tac on a relevant queston for debate.

I hope you will share your list with us.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Matthew 7.21

-Is obedience to the will of God "works"?

The previous verse provides the key to understanding what he's talking about. "by your fruit you shall know them" points out that the works must be systemic. The gospel narratives point out that the elders, Pharisees, scribes, etc. were keeping the law perfectly. There was, and probably still is no better example of piety than that of a meticulously observant Jew. Christ notes this by pointing out that "except your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven".

Christians routinely dismiss the gravity of what Christ is pointing out here. He is pointing out that anyone who doesn't live a perfect life of obedience to God is condemned. Scholars routinely point out that Jesus must have been a devout Pharisee because of his glowing praise for keeping the law, but here again with the standard set at perfect observance of the law, Christianity still continues to ignore Christ's own words.

The rub is that the Pharisees themselves aren't going to make it either as they're not producing fruit systemically. Their works are THEIR works. They don't see that apart from God, they can do nothing. They view their works as a means to salvation rather than a consequence of God's grace and mercy.

-Is Jesus preaching salvation by "works" here?

No, not at all. He's preaching repentance which entails turning from looking at the fallen world, and returning to reflect God's image to the world.

-How does this verse, this lesson of Jesus, fit in with Paul's notion that those who seek salvation by works of the Law are "under a curse"?

It fits perfectly because both are spotlighting the fact that those attempting to save themselves by their own will and effort are destined to fail. The entire Old Testament is an illustration of this empirical fact. The physical body is incapable of doing much of anything correctly by the unaided will. One must believe that what they are attempting to do is doable, and that takes faith. Faith is not a faculty of the will. It is a different faculty altogether.

The will and effort are insufficient to accomplish God's will hence failure must ensue, and failure to hit the mark is sin, therefore a sin offering must be provided. This is the curse of the law, and those who continue to fail must rely upon the sacrificial system which places them under the curse of the law.

Those who operate under the direction of the Spirit no longer fulfill the lust of the flesh. When Paul says this he is pointing out that they no longer sin. They have become a "new creation". He is referring to those passages in Jeremiah and Ezekiel where they point out that when God places a new heart in his people, they will keep his laws.

Here it is in a nutshell: Unlike those who keep the law because they should, or because it's the right thing to do, or as a means of salvation; the new creature keeps the law because they are a new creature in Christ. A fish swims for no other reason than the fact that it was created to swim, and the new creation is created to keep God's law.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

Matthew 25:46 And these (the unrighteous) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

There's nothing here that suggests that the unrighteous will be forgiven. To the contrary it clearly states that the righteous will go into eternal life.

So a person's own righteousness is what earns them eternal life. Nothing else.

A person has no righteousness of their own. It is imputed to them by God as is evidenced in Deuteronomy 6:25. This is explained by Paul in Romans 10:4,5; and Galatians 3:12 where he points out that those who live by the law must do it by faith, and that faith is only found in Christ. It can't be our faith or our righteousness, or as Paul says, "The faith OF Christ".

In fact, if there are contradictory claims in these theological texts, then clearly the theology is inconsistent and is not maintaining a single coherent claim.

Very true! Of course the mere assertion doesn't prove there are any contradictory claims.

I personally have accepted the truth of the latter...

There is no truth to the latter. You have simply begged the question. You're essentially saying,

"if there are contradictory claims..., then clearly it isn't a coherent claim" which isn't anything more than a mere supposition.

To suppose something as true doesn't make it true.

[onewithhim]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7.21

-Is obedience to the will of God "works"?

-Is Jesus preaching salvation by "works" here?

-How does this verse, this lesson of Jesus, fit in with Paul's notion that those who seek salvation by works of the Law are "under a curse"?

The works of the Law and the things we do to obey Jehovah and Jesus are two different issues. Paul was saying that the Law could no longer smooth over the sins of the people, by sacrificing animals, etc., because it had been fulfilled by the sacrifice of Jesus once and for all time. Now there was a better way to be in God's good graces---by accepting what Christ did and then by DOING what he said to do.

A person cannot work their way into God's acceptance without accepting what Jesus did. AFTER accepting Jesus, THEN we must follow his example and do the things that his Father has set out for humans to do.

"To this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps." (I Peter 2:21)

"So let us not give up in doing what is fine, for in due season we shall reap if we do not tire out. Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us WORK what is good toward all..." (Galatians 6:9,10)