What does Paul mean, when he says

[Elijah John]

Romans 14.33

..for whatever is not of faith is sin.

What does this mean? Is everything a person does during the course of a day a matter of faith? Are mundane activities "of faith"? If not, are mundane things "sin"?

[2timothy316]

Assuming you meant Romans 14:23.

The answer is in the context of the whole 14th chapter.

The short answer is that Paul was writing to the Roman congregations about not judging one another for what they eat or drink. Meanwhile on the other hand don't stumble another brother by exercising your right to eat and drink whatever you want. The council to both is when it comes to eating and drinking keep what you think is right or wrong between you and Jehovah. For anything we judge others for outside the commandments or do without consideration for others is a sin. "Indeed everything that is not based on faith is a sin." 'Faith' being what the current standards are set by Jehovah.

The longer answer:
Example: There is a person that comes from a family with an abusive father that would do horrible things while drunk. This leads that person to swear off alcohol for life and over time begins to look down on those that do drink alcohol. Paul's advise to a person such as this, a person of faith knows drunkenness is bad, however in faith simply having a couple of drinks for enjoyment or celebration is not bad.

But the council doesn't end there because Paul also said, "It is best not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles." So this means that the person that knows they will be either be judged by another a possibly push away another from their faith in Jehovah's congregation, don't do whatever that may be. Perhaps it is drinking alcohol. Back in Paul's day it might have been eating pork or shrimp. If drinking or eating such things would stumble another, the advice is don't do it.

Now imagine if that person's alcoholic father became a believer in Jehovah and Jesus. He is still struggling with alcohol abuse. Would it be a good idea to drink alcohol around such a person even though we were not trying to get drunk? What if we stumble that person into drinking again and they left the congregation because of what we felt was our right to drink. "Indeed, everything that is not based on faith is a sin." Those that stumbled the alcoholic violated their faith in the principle that we are to go on "walking according to love" of our fellow brothers and sisters.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

While I agree with my brother on the immediate context of Paul's words (namely that the violating ones conscience, or that of a Christian believer being a sin), I think we can also draw a wider principle from Paul's words.

Paul later wrote to the Jewish Christians: "without faith it is impossible to please God well" and explained to the Corinthians "whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory." . In the light of this we can draw the general principle that all activities, whether sacred or mundane, should be based on a sincere desire to please God and an effort to conform to his standards.

Anything less is, according to the bible, indeed sinful.


JW



Further reading The truth about sin
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010414

RELATED POSTS

Can someone that doesn't believe in the notion of sin, sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 439#893439

How is it that all humans came to be sinners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 000#841000

Did Jesus teach everyone is bad?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 302#942302

[brianbbs67]

Romans 14.33

..for whatever is not of faith is sin.

What does this mean? Is everything a person does during the course of a day a matter of faith? Are mundane activities "of faith"? If not, are mundane things "sin"?

The M or majority text puts Romans 16:25-27 after this verse. The food point is because these are beginners to the way of Christ, having only the rules set in Act 15 before them as they learn Moses each week in the synagogue. Paul is referring to people harassing the new converts about their diet, which does not need to be done when they are new to the faith. They will learn as they grow in the knowledge of the law. Acts 15:21, "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagoguesevery Sabbath."

[shnarkle]

Romans 14.33

..for whatever is not of faith is sin.

What does this mean? Is everything a person does during the course of a day a matter of faith? Are mundane activities "of faith"? If not, are mundane things "sin"?

The M or majority text puts Romans 16:25-27 after this verse. The food point is because these are beginners to the way of Christ, having only the rules set in Act 15 before them as they learn Moses each week in the synagogue. Paul is referring to people harassing the new converts about their diet, which does not need to be done when they are new to the faith. They will learn as they grow in the knowledge of the law. Acts 15:21, "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagoguesevery Sabbath."

This has nothing to do with the dietary laws, but is explicitly dealing with vegetarianism (e.g. herbs"), and "esteeming" a day for special devotion to God. The dietary laws are not vegetarian. Paul allows no quarter for sin which is right in line with Christ's teachings.

We can be sure of this due to the fact that nowhere in scripture are unclean animals referred to as "food". Just because someone puts something into their mouth doesn't make it food.

Moreover, there is no prohibition against cannibalism in the New Testament. If we were to go along with this idea that we needn't concern ourselves with the dietary laws, or even go all the way as most Christians do, and claim they are completely done away with, then we must admit there can be no prohibition against the consumption of human flesh.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

While I agree with my brother on the immediate context of Paul's words (namely that the violating ones conscience, or that of a Christian believer being a sin), I think we can also draw a wider principle from Paul's words.

Paul later wrote to the Jewish Christians: "without faith it is impossible to please God well" and explained to the Corinthians "whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory." . In the light of this we can draw the general principle that all activities, whether sacred or mundane, should be based on a sincere desire to please God and an effort to conform to his standards.

Anything less is, according to the bible, indeed sinful.

That is an amazing claim. While I agree, I also note that those who make this claim don't just commit sin due to some inability, but do so intentionally and in open defiant rebellion against God's explicitly stated will. The most notorious examples being, observance of the Sabbath (the 4th commandment), the dietary laws, the law against adultery (the 7th commandment). My favorite is to place oneself outside Jehovha's covenants of promise, while simultaneously agreeing to the conditions, and assuming one may still reap the benefits of the sacrificial system which is explicitly within that covenant.

To be lawless is to be faithless.

[shnarkle]

Assuming you meant Romans 14:23.

The answer is in the context of the whole 14th chapter.

The short answer is that Paul was writing to the Roman congregations about not judging one another for what they eat or drink. Meanwhile on the other hand don't stumble another brother by exercising your right to eat and drink whatever you want. The council to both is when it comes to eating and drinking keep what you think is right or wrong between you and Jehovah. For anything we judge others for outside the commandments or do without consideration for others is a sin. "Indeed everything that is not based on faith is a sin." 'Faith' being what the current standards are set by Jehovah.

The longer answer:
Example: There is a person that comes from a family with an abusive father that would do horrible things while drunk. This leads that person to swear off alcohol for life and over time begins to look down on those that do drink alcohol. Paul's advise to a person such as this, a person of faith knows drunkenness is bad, however in faith simply having a couple of drinks for enjoyment or celebration is not bad.

But the council doesn't end there because Paul also said, "It is best not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles." So this means that the person that knows they will be either be judged by another a possibly push away another from their faith in Jehovah's congregation, don't do whatever that may be. Perhaps it is drinking alcohol. Back in Paul's day it might have been eating pork or shrimp. If drinking or eating such things would stumble another, the advice is don't do it.

Now imagine if that person's alcoholic father became a believer in Jehovah and Jesus. He is still struggling with alcohol abuse. Would it be a good idea to drink alcohol around such a person even though we were not trying to get drunk? What if we stumble that person into drinking again and they left the congregation because of what we felt was our right to drink. "Indeed, everything that is not based on faith is a sin." Those that stumbled the alcoholic violated their faith in the principle that we are to go on "walking according to love" of our fellow brothers and sisters.

While I applaud this response, i must also point out that when Paul refers to "meat", he is explicitly referring to food as defined by the bible, and pork is never referred to as food in the Old or New Testaments. It quite simply isn't food to begin with.

Whatever is of faith is right in line with God's will as articulated within God's law, but more to the point, whatever is of faith is "by" faith. In other words, it is accomplished by faith rather than "will or effort". It isn't we who fulfill God's commandments, but Christ in us. What was impossible under the Old Testament methodology is now accomplished in, with, and through Christ in us.

In his letter to the Colassians, Paul states that "no man judge you in eating and drinking", but he isn't talking about fellow believers as those who are outside the law don't "regard" dietary laws, or the new moons and sabbaths. It is a supreme irony that Christ who came to "magnify the law", and "new moons and sabbaths" is now seen as doing away with them. (Isa.66:23)

[shnarkle]

Romans 14.33

..for whatever is not of faith is sin.

What does this mean? Is everything a person does during the course of a day a matter of faith? Are mundane activities "of faith"? If not, are mundane things "sin"?

Whatever is of faith is by the faith of Christ. It is referring to those passages in Jeremiah and Ezekiel where God replaces that old cold dead heart with a heart to keep God's commandments. It is a systemic process initiated by God which results in God's will reigning not just as some external observance accomplished through one's own will and effort, but within the heart of a new creation that has been created sinless; one that not only will not sin, but cannot sin.

It would be synonymous to say, "Whatever is not of Christ is sin". It is the resurrected Christ living in, with, and through the new creation.

[brianbbs67]

Romans 14.33

..for whatever is not of faith is sin.

What does this mean? Is everything a person does during the course of a day a matter of faith? Are mundane activities "of faith"? If not, are mundane things "sin"?

The M or majority text puts Romans 16:25-27 after this verse. The food point is because these are beginners to the way of Christ, having only the rules set in Act 15 before them as they learn Moses each week in the synagogue. Paul is referring to people harassing the new converts about their diet, which does not need to be done when they are new to the faith. They will learn as they grow in the knowledge of the law. Acts 15:21, "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagoguesevery Sabbath."

This has nothing to do with the dietary laws, but is explicitly dealing with vegetarianism (e.g. herbs"), and "esteeming" a day for special devotion to God. The dietary laws are not vegetarian. Paul allows no quarter for sin which is right in line with Christ's teachings.

We can be sure of this due to the fact that nowhere in scripture are unclean animals referred to as "food". Just because someone puts something into their mouth doesn't make it food.

Moreover, there is no prohibition against cannibalism in the New Testament. If we were to go along with this idea that we needn't concern ourselves with the dietary laws, or even go all the way as most Christians do, and claim they are completely done away with, then we must admit there can be no prohibition against the consumption of human flesh.

I am not disagreeing with you, I think. I believe the law still applies for our food. I was merely trying to show the Jerusalem ccouncil was giving rules for new converts that came from the Torah. Cannabalism is not addressed, as you say. This is perhaps because we were thought to be smart enough to know we weren't supposed to eat each other?

[2timothy316]

Assuming you meant Romans 14:23.

The answer is in the context of the whole 14th chapter.

The short answer is that Paul was writing to the Roman congregations about not judging one another for what they eat or drink. Meanwhile on the other hand don't stumble another brother by exercising your right to eat and drink whatever you want. The council to both is when it comes to eating and drinking keep what you think is right or wrong between you and Jehovah. For anything we judge others for outside the commandments or do without consideration for others is a sin. "Indeed everything that is not based on faith is a sin." 'Faith' being what the current standards are set by Jehovah.

The longer answer:
Example: There is a person that comes from a family with an abusive father that would do horrible things while drunk. This leads that person to swear off alcohol for life and over time begins to look down on those that do drink alcohol. Paul's advise to a person such as this, a person of faith knows drunkenness is bad, however in faith simply having a couple of drinks for enjoyment or celebration is not bad.

But the council doesn't end there because Paul also said, "It is best not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles." So this means that the person that knows they will be either be judged by another a possibly push away another from their faith in Jehovah's congregation, don't do whatever that may be. Perhaps it is drinking alcohol. Back in Paul's day it might have been eating pork or shrimp. If drinking or eating such things would stumble another, the advice is don't do it.

Now imagine if that person's alcoholic father became a believer in Jehovah and Jesus. He is still struggling with alcohol abuse. Would it be a good idea to drink alcohol around such a person even though we were not trying to get drunk? What if we stumble that person into drinking again and they left the congregation because of what we felt was our right to drink. "Indeed, everything that is not based on faith is a sin." Those that stumbled the alcoholic violated their faith in the principle that we are to go on "walking according to love" of our fellow brothers and sisters.

While I applaud this response, i must also point out that when Paul refers to "meat", he is explicitly referring to food as defined by the bible, and pork is never referred to as food in the Old or New Testaments. It quite simply isn't food to begin with.

"Heaven opened and something descending like a great linen sheet being let down by its four corners on the earth; and in it were all sorts of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth and birds of heaven. Then a voice said to him: “Get up, Peter, slaughter* and eat!� But Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because I have never eaten anything defiled and unclean.� And the voice spoke again to him, the second time: “Stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed.� Acts 10:11-15

While pigs are not specifically defined as one of the 'four-footed animals' Peter was told to eat, it's clear the animals that were once considered unclean are now clean and to call something unclean which God has called clean is simply an insult to Jehovah.

Whatever is of faith is right in line with God's will as articulated within God's law, but more to the point, whatever is of faith is "by" faith. In other words, it is accomplished by faith rather than "will or effort". It isn't we who fulfill God's commandments, but Christ in us. What was impossible under the Old Testament methodology is now accomplished in, with, and through Christ in us.

In his letter to the Colassians, Paul states that "no man judge you in eating and drinking", but he isn't talking about fellow believers as those who are outside the law don't "regard" dietary laws, or the new moons and sabbaths. It is a supreme irony that Christ who came to "magnify the law", and "new moons and sabbaths" is now seen as doing away with them. (Isa.66:23)

He did magnify the law indeed. What did he magnify in the law? Food restrictions? No. “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?� He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.� (MT 22:36-40)