Is your sin Original?

[polonius]

[myth-one.com]

Lucifer, also known as Satan or the Devil, was not content in his position. He wanted to be like the most high God. He wanted to exalt his throne above the stars, or angels, of God.

This supposes that Satan et al knew YHWH as GOD, knew HIS divinity and HIS power yet were so stupid that they thought that they too could be divine and all powerful! ???

I can't accept that once they had seen HIS deity and HIS power proven as it was when HE CREATED the physical universe (Rom 1:20) and they all sang HIS praises, Job 38:7, that they later decided that HE could be thwarted though they themselves could never duplicate HIS creative powers.... this just does not compute for me. I know it was a favourite idea when I was in college 50 yrs ago and I shot it down then as an atheist and I shut it down now as a Christian. It is too foolish to be the foundational belief in any theology.

Nonetheless, that is exactly what the scriptures state:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Is it wise to "shoot down" the words of God?

[ttruscott]

Nonetheless, that is exactly what the scriptures state:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Is it wise to "shoot down" the words of God?

What we read in the bible as truth is indeed only our interpretation of the meaning of the words. Your interpretation is in dispute with many...

It is highly probable that the word helel, translated as the Latin Lucifer (there obviously is no Latin words in the Hebrew Bible) and rendered as a name is in fact an adjective referring to his lamenting over having chose wrong in the face of GOD proving HIS divinity. The King James translator probably made a mistake using the term Lucifer to describe morning star in Isaiah 14:12... "Lucifer" may be an accurate translation of "morning star" into Latin but why include a Latin word in an English translation? It adds something to the text which isn't in the original which changes the meaning and leads us to assume things that we wouldn't otherwise if we could read Hebrew.

While Jerome was the first to translate a Hebrew world as a Latin name, he also translated it more in keeping with its derivation as howl or lament; Zech. 11:2 and
Eze. 21:12.

Our own Yahu wrote:
"Most Christians are too ignorant of the ancient paganism to see all the references all over scripture. For example, Lucifer is called 'ben Shachar', ie 'son of the Morning' but most don't understand that Shachar was a title of a Canaanite deity and Heylel (ie 'Lucifer') was his SON. (Shachar is also mentioned in other scriptures. For example Job 38) That reference is a reference to a title of the ancient pagan sun god. It is equivalent to the title 'Pheobus' in the Greek, an epitaph of Apollo. Lucifer in scripture is just a reference to the same individual as the Greek god Apollo worshipped in the ancient world. Even Rev declares that the 'king of the pit' is called Apollyon in the Greek, an alternate spelling of Apollo. Scripture usually references this pagan god under his Canaanite title of Molech ('shameful king'). The Roman's even called Apollo's twin sister as Diana Luciferah. She was the goddess Ashtoreth to the Canaanites."

Then there is the indubitable evidence that the true Morning Star is Christ Himself.

If you imply that I 'go against the word of GOD', must you not provide proof that your interpretation is the only correct one? It seems that the earth was where Satan was flung down to at the end of the war in heaven, that is, earth was not the place of his fall, and all references to earthly things at his fall must refer to another person and another's fall. A quick search of the commentaries will show you that not everyone agrees with your interpretation, summed up by Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers: "Few English readers realise the fact that it is the king of Babylon, and not the devil, who is addressed as Lucifer."

[myth-one.com]

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

This supposes that Satan et al knew YHWH as GOD, knew HIS divinity and HIS power yet were so stupid that they thought that they too could be divine and all powerful! ???

I can't accept that once they had seen HIS deity and HIS power proven as it was when HE CREATED the physical universe (Rom 1:20) and they all sang HIS praises, Job 38:7, that they later decided that HE could be thwarted though they themselves could never duplicate HIS creative powers.... this just does not compute for me. I know it was a favourite idea when I was in college 50 yrs ago and I shot it down then as an atheist and I shut it down now as a Christian. It is too foolish to be the foundational belief in any theology.

What we read in the bible as truth is indeed only our interpretation of the meaning of the words. Your interretation is in dispute with many...

I have simply quoted God and you above -- "interpreting" absolutely NOTHING!


But I'll have to side with the God inspired scriptures on this issue -- simply believing His words as written.

[ttruscott]

I have simply quoted God and you above -- "interpreting" absolutely NOTHING!

Lucifer is NOT in the text as a word or as a proper translation of a word - all you got is interpretation...

[myth-one.com]

I have simply quoted God and you above -- "interpreting" absolutely NOTHING!

Lucifer is NOT in the text as a word or as a proper translation of a word - all you got is interpretation...

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer . . . (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Can you see it now?

[ttruscott]

I have simply quoted God and you above -- "interpreting" absolutely NOTHING!

Lucifer is NOT in the text as a word or as a proper translation of a word - all you got is interpretation...

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer . . . (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Can you see it now?

Of course I can't - because the word Lucifer is not there except wrongfully in older translations! The word is hê·lêl, הֵילֵ֣ל which means to howl, or the howling lamenting one.
3213
hê·lêl
וְהֵילֵל֙
Wail

Isa 14:12 kjv: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! H3213 how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Eze. 21:12
3213
wə·hê·lêl
וְהֵילֵל֙
and wail

And anyway, Jesus is the morning star: Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star. although it is Mormon doctrine that either Jesus is Satan or is His brother since they also translate hê·lêl as Lucifer like you do.

Are the rest of your doctrines Mormon also?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 76 by ttruscott]

The word is hê·lêl, הֵילֵ֣ל which means to howl, or the howling lamenting one.

And anyway, Jesus is the morning star

So you're saying Isaiah 14:12-14 should read as follows:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O howling lamenting one, Jesus!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)"

=========================================


I'll simply omit that verse from my posting #66. the conclusion remains the same:


God created the heaven and the earth in the first verse of the Bible:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

A host of angels were created under the supervision of Satan and given power over the earth as caretakers. In fact, Satan still had power over the earth during the life of Jesus:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

Some time after the original verse one creation; the earth had become formless, dark, and void:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Here is what the Bible says happened:

These earthly caretakers rebelled and sinned against God their creator:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

Lucifer, also known as Satan or the Devil, was not content in his position. He wanted to be like the most high God. He wanted to exalt his throne above the stars, or angels, of God.

These rebels were defeated and cast back down to the earth:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

As a result of their rebellious nature and sin, the good earth reached the chaotic and unacceptable condition of formless, void, and dark.

Notice that only the earth had become formless, void, and dark. Satan did not rule the heaven so it remained good.

Although Satan ruled the earth, God can and does intervene on occasions. One such intervention was the re-creation of the decimated earth described in Genesis beginning in verse three of chapter one, which occurred approximately six thousand years ago.

These rebellious caretakers will need to be replaced after God seizes control of the earth back from Satan. In the original creation the caretakers were created with spiritual bodies which live forever. In the recreation God did not create more spiritual beings and risk being stuck with more rebels for eternity. He created a mortal being called man a little lower than the angels:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth... (Genesis 1:28)

Replenish indicates to make full or complete a second time! From The Random House College Dictionary, replenish is defined as:

replenish -- to make full or complete again.

Thus man was charged with completing the work in which Satan and his angels so miserably failed.

[myth-one.com]

PCE contends that HE created everyone in HIS image ingenuously innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to become either perfectly eternally righteous or perfectly and eternally evil. And so it started...

But what does "perfectly eternally righteous" mean?

Is it that they cannot possibly sin, or that they will always choose not to sin?

And does "perfectly and eternally evil" mean that it is impossible for them to choose good over evil?

Or does it means they can choose good or evil, but they will always choose evil?

Thanks

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 76 by ttruscott]

The word is hê·lêl, הֵילֵ֣ל which means to howl, or the howling lamenting one.

And anyway, Jesus is the morning star

So you're saying Isaiah 14:12-14 should read as follows:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O howling lamenting one, Jesus!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

No, I accept the commentaries that suggest: Isaiah 14:12 How are you fallen from heaven, O wailing one, [who claimed to be the] son of the morning, [the saviour]! how are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!

But you are trying to argue that Satan did these things AFTER knowing the full proof of GOD's deity which I rejected. Whether this is about the King of Babylon or Satan, these are the thoughts and desires of a sinner, not an innocent. Romans 1 tell us that sinners repress the proof they have of HIS deity and power because they love sin more than the truth.

My thesis is that since Satan fell before the physical creation or shortly after, that he had no earthly metaphors for his rebellion. BUT when he first sinned, rejecting YHWH as his god and claiming he was a false god and a liar, he did not have any proof of whether YHWH was Divine or not but chose his position BY FAITH, a faith which condemned him but for those who put their faith in YHWH, this faith saved them from all sin.

For these metaphors to be useful, he had to have known all that they contained, that YHWH was the most high etc and saviour from any and everything ie the most benevolent, OR they are suggestive of his desires in his mind, not about what he knew was real.

Since it is improbable that a person who was not a sinner would become one in the face of YHWH's divinity and power, I suggest that even though a sinner might have these grandiose desires, to become a sinner he had to take such a position on faith, without proof of YHWH's divinity.

[myth-one.com]

Do you believe any of the following verses?

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth... (Genesis 1:28)