Telling Demons from God

[ElCodeMonkey]

If one "spirit" tells you X and another tells you NOT X, how do you know which is right? I imagine, for a lot of people, you'll likely say "well does it jive with the Bible?" Barring the fact that most things can be forced to jive if you want it too, how do we know it wasn't a demon who whispered the idea to take the Bible as God's word to begin with? What if that whole concept was a demon whisper and the God whisper is "ugh, listen to me, not the book!" and we unjustly turn away the God-whisper? Of course, it's just as possible that God is saying to follow the book while a demon says to follow him. So how does one tell them apart? How do you know which is God and which is demon and especially if disagreeing about the book itself? Why default to believing the "follow the book" one without a good reason? Please note, the book cannot give an authoritative answer on this. It could contain useful advice, but not with authority on the matter of determining its own authority. So how do you tell spirits apart?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 27 by ttruscott]

So what I am hearing you say (take note 2timothy316, this is a great example of what I'm hoping from you :-p) is that because we are too sinful ourselves, we could never truly tell the God voices apart from the Demon voices?

We are not too sinful. The Bible shows all of Satan's tricks. We know all of his moves and motives. Motive is what to really watch.

As such, we should simply have faith... in... this is where I get lost. How do we know what to have faith in if we can't tell the voices apart? Or am I misunderstanding your position?

The Bible says of faith, “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.� (Heb 11:1)

The key is evident demonstration. Faith isn't blind, there is something evident backing it. However sometimes there might not be much evidence, but there is enough to draw some type of accurate conclusion.

[ElCodeMonkey]

You say Satan can't force out demon but what Jesus says in the Bible is that Satan can't cast out demons without working against himself and harming his own goals. The Jewish leadership was in effect crediting Satan with doing something good. To put it in terms that you might be able to relate to: It would be like if the NRA lobbied for the destruction of all hand guns to gain the support of those that hate guns. Likewise, Jesus was directing people to God and a better way of life with his healing of people. This goes against everything Satan is trying to do. Again, focusing on the wanted result is how we tell demons from God.

What you say Jesus is saying is exactly what I'm saying. Casting out a demon, for whatever reason, is always something that will work against Satan and therefore he "can't" do it. It could never be to his advantage. So why not? Humans can do this kind of trickery just fine. I'm not sure you're seeing properly from the Pharisee's perspective. They believed they followed God. They believed they had the religion right. They believed that Jesus was trying to destroy it all and they were justified to kill him for heresy of their God. So they didn't think Jesus was doing something "Good", they thought he was "tricking" people with exorcisms and healings to sway them from the one true God's edicts and to follow Satan himself. Jesus said such a trick is nonsensical if not impossible. But let's use your NRA example.

Let's assume for simplicity that the only goal of the NRA is keeping all kinds of firearms in people's hands. No restriction of firearms. Only goal. Now, if the NRA tried to ban pistols in order to "gain followers", this doesn't make any sense. This setup works against them 100% of the time. They don't want "followers", they want firearms. If they tried to permit guns by saying "guns are bad" then that makes absolutely no sense either. These options could only ever hurt them since it would direct people away from their goal of everyone owning all types of firearms. It's simply something they cannot do. Now, if they talk about the futility of airsoft guns or uplift the religion of unicorns in order to twist words which indicate that the unicorns demand firearms and hate "fake" guns like airsoft guns, then this would still be 100% within their trickery ability. It would not work against them because they're not anti-unicorn, they are pro-firearm.

SO, if Satan is capable of using the Bible and uplifting it, he is clearly NOT anti-Bible. He is NOT anti-scripture to be able to say it is authority and use it. His goals are something else: hate, malice, murder, pain, suffering, etc. If these are his only goals, then it doesn't matter what books he uses to create them. And if these are his only goals, then the main means by which we avoid those goals is to seek out the opposites: love, peace, kindness, healing, etc. So Satan cannot "heal" to get people to "hurt". He cannot promote kindness and command that we be kind if his goal is for hatred. This is the dichotomy that Jesus was getting at. And if this is the dichotomy, if the goal is simply the battle of good vs evil, and any texts can be used to do battle, then the texts aren't what matter. If the texts ARE what matter and beliefs are what matter and particular rituals are what matter, then any amount of "good" can indeed be used in part to promote the wrong beliefs and texts. So Jesus' argument would fall flat if the main battle was beliefs and rituals over doing good vs doing evil.

Does that express my point more clearly?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 27 by ttruscott]

So what I am hearing you say (take note 2timothy316, this is a great example of what I'm hoping from you :-p) is that because we are too sinful ourselves, we could never truly tell the God voices apart from the Demon voices? As such, we should simply have faith... in... this is where I get lost. How do we know what to have faith in if we can't tell the voices apart? Or am I misunderstanding your position?

Put your faith in anything you want... it doesn't matter. I had my faith in there was no GOD to there was a nasty GOD to there was truth in Calvinism to there is truth in Arminianism to accepting the truth of PCE. None of it mattered...but GOD's leading. HE came to me; HE identified HIMself to me. I capitulated and asked HIM you r HE toldme the Biblewas HISbook saying wha tHE wanted it to say..

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 27 by ttruscott]

So what I am hearing you say (take note 2timothy316, this is a great example of what I'm hoping from you :-p) is that because we are too sinful ourselves, we could never truly tell the God voices apart from the Demon voices? As such, we should simply have faith... in... this is where I get lost. How do we know what to have faith in if we can't tell the voices apart? Or am I misunderstanding your position?

Put your faith in anything you want... it doesn't matter. I had my faith in there was no GOD to there was a nasty GOD to there was truth in Calvinism to there is truth in Arminianism to accepting the truth of PCE. None of it mattered...but GOD's leading. HE came to me; HE identified HIMself to me. I capitulated and asked HIM your question and HE said to trust faithfully. HE told me the Bible was HIS book saying what HE wanted it to say. I said OK and my life now proves to me that HE was NOT a demon because I've learned to love.

Whenever I've gone wrong I've been brought back and corrected and now it doesn't happen so often...Was a demon leading me? Who cares, I was corrected as HE promised. My theology gives GOD more glory and diminishes blasphemy - would a demon do that?

And yes, the only proof I have is my changed life and the fact that attacks on faith as real and my faith in particular have no meaning to me any more.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Put your faith in anything you want... it doesn't matter. I had my faith in there was no GOD to there was a nasty GOD to there was truth in Calvinism to there is truth in Arminianism to accepting the truth of PCE. None of it mattered...but GOD's leading. HE came to me; HE identified HIMself to me. I capitulated and asked HIM your question and HE said to trust faithfully. HE told me the Bible was HIS book saying what HE wanted it to say. I said OK and my life now proves to me that HE was NOT a demon because I've learned to love.

Whenever I've gone wrong I've been brought back and corrected and now it doesn't happen so often...Was a demon leading me? Who cares, I was corrected as HE promised. My theology gives GOD more glory and diminishes blasphemy - would a demon do that?

And yes, the only proof I have is my changed life and the fact that attacks on faith as real and my faith in particular have no meaning to me any more.

This is a really interesting response. You've identified a metric: love. You've also identified that you've changed perspectives and understandings a lot which, I presume, means you likely assume you have potential for wrongness in some ways and rightness in others even right now. Perhaps demons lead in some ways and God leads in others as you need it. You know you are at least "mostly" following God over the demons because it is leading back to your metric: love. Would a demon lead you there? I dare say not. So clearly, as you say, you are going in the right direction and you know by the fruits of love. So rather than simply faith, it sounds like love is that which you use to determine the spirits. You have faith that following and trying for love will lead to love and improve your life. Do you agree with this assessment?

[tam]

Peace to you ECM,

1 - Test the inspired expression against Christ and His word (and anything He has taught). Ask HIM for the truth of the matter. Hold all things up against the Light (that is Christ).

Anything that is in conflict with Christ - the Truth - cannot be true or from God.

(If one does not yet hear or know His voice, then ask for ears to hear, and keep asking, seeking, knocking. His sheep will listen to His voice.)

This one I take issue with because it simply asks if the spirit is God's rather than explaining how to know it's God's. How do we know that the Christ you know is truly the Christ and not one pretending to be the Christ to throw you off?

How do you know? Or how do I know?


You can know by asking to hear for yourself, if indeed you are one of His sheep and do hear His voice, and by testing the inspired expression. If you are not one of His sheep and/or do not believe He speaks or even exists, then I'm not sure why you would care as long as anything someone else heard and did was from love. If you are one of His disciples but do not yet hear (or know) His voice, then you can ask and pray for ears to hear; and in the meantime test the inspired expression via points 2 and 3.



How do I know?

I know because I am one of His sheep and I hear (and know) His voice. Same as I would know my own mother's voice. I also recognize the truth in what my Lord speaks and teaches. The spirit in me bears witness to this truth - crying out 'yes' from within me. My Lord has never lied to me, never led me wrong, speaks and teaches only truth (including painful truth if need be, as well as discipline/training as needed), and that truth comes from love.

2 - Test the inspired expression against love. God is love; something that is against love cannot be from God. Truth also comes from God (who is love).

This I would agree with entirely. Love is something we can compare to for things that involve a moral element. A spirit says to kill someone, we say no. But what if it was trying to get us to stop baby Hitler? Also, if a spirit says we should wrap ourselves in blankets like burritos on Fridays, how can you know it's from God himself? We can't compare that to love.

If you agree with it entirely, then why are you bringing up imagined scenarios, lol?


Love does not commit murder.

3 - Test the inspired expression against what is written (beginning with what Christ taught in what is written, because even if one is going by that book, Christ is the authority in that book - since He is the Truth, the Word, and the Image of God).

(Even when testing against what is written, one should ask and listen to Christ and let Him open our eyes (and our ears)... because He is the One who opens the scriptures so that we can see and even HEAR what is truly written and what is/was truly meant).

And here we're back to comparing with the book. But what if the demons started the book? How can you know you are not being mislead?

I do not know what you mean by the question if 'demons started the book'. The bible is not one single book, but many books that are compiled together, some being scripture (the Psalms, the Prophets, and Moses - which my Lord said bears witness to Him), some being history of a people (good and bad things that they have done), some being testimony accounts from men who bore witness to Christ, some being personal letters that disciples and Aposltes wrote to other people. Some (perhaps much) of what is written in Proverbs and the Psalms is from my Lord (He is the One speaking), such as Proverbs 8 (Wisdom is Christ).


Regardless, one can also test the things that are written in that book against a) Christ Himself, b) love, and c) what Christ is written to have said.

If God himself wanted to tell you the book is wrong, how could you possibly hear him? Would you let him tell you this or do you limit what God can say?

I am not entirely sure why you are asking me this question, when I already said that I listen to the voice of my Lord.



Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

[Replying to post 33 by ttruscott]

And yes, the only proof I have is my changed life and the fact that attacks on faith as real and my faith in particular have no meaning to me any more.

Being asked pertinent Q's about your position - in the setting of a debate forum - and conflating that with ''attacks on faith" which are responded to by you with silence as in - ignoring the pertinent Q's altogether - under the excuse that - they - the pertinent Q's you regard as 'attacks' have "no meaning to you any more" is simply a cop-out and garner your particular position no favors regarding your faith "in particular".

What it does show the observant is that faith-based belief systems (beliefs which require faith from the adherents) are non-debatable and thus DO NOT BELONG in a debate setting.

When one looks at the argument you make above, ttruscott, it amounts to someone complaining about getting consistently mugged because they choose to walk through an area which is well known for its high crime stats... which also amounts to being a willful victim... because one has 'suffered' the same fate repeatedly but one still chooses to walk that path in order that ones 'faith' is 'attacked' so that one is thus able to proclaim ones 'faith' must therefore be 'relevant'. That is the only purpose of such faith.

The 'proof' one claims it provides, is manufactured.

Plain and simple.

[ElCodeMonkey]

I know because I am one of His sheep and I hear (and know) His voice. Same as I would know my own mother's voice. I also recognize the truth in what my Lord speaks and teaches. The spirit in me bears witness to this truth - crying out 'yes' from within me. My Lord has never lied to me, never led me wrong, speaks and teaches only truth (including painful truth if need be, as well as discipline/training as needed), and that truth comes from love.

So what I am hearing from you is the idea that different spirits have actual different "voices" of a sort such that you can now pick out the one that has led you toward love and effectively know if it is the one speaking to you vs other spirits speaking to you?

If you agree with it entirely, then why are you bringing up imagined scenarios, lol?

Because your statement didn't encompass the scenarios I brought up. I can agree entirely that you compare to love, but then the question is what is loving.

Love does not commit murder.

Is it murder to kill Hitler?

I do not know what you mean by the question if 'demons started the book'. The bible is not one single book,

I mean this modern Christian idea that one ought to use a book in the way that it is used pretty much as a replacement for God's voice. It is held as God itself and uplifted in the churches in the place of God for effectively all of Christianity. Kinda sounds like a verse I remember in 2 Thess. "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God". If you would allow the voice to trump the book, however, maybe you are not one of said "effectively all" Christians.

I am not entirely sure why you are asking me this question, when I already said that I listen to the voice of my Lord.

The question is how you would know it's your Lord's voice and not a demon's voice. So this goes back to the question up top. Now that you know your voice is good, you can trust what it says so long as it "sounds" like your well-known voice? We can't compare "the Bible is wrong" with "love" exactly so the voice itself would have to be an established one. I would propose that the voice isn't a "sound" so much as a... spiritual feeling... right?

Since you do seem to understand the concept of listening to God's voice though, let me say that I took that concept to heart as I sought God with all my might. That seeking and listening brought me to a message of love and denounced the Bible as an authority. It revealed to me that the very message of wheat and weeds existed together with difficulty telling them apart within the book. It is not all wholesome which is obvious once I took off the "Bible is perfect" glasses. So I followed a voice which led me to love and told me this. You follow a voice which leads you to love and, from what I gather, has not yet told you this.

[ttruscott]

Is it murder to kill Hitler?

Hey, I believe in Christ as my GOD.

Oh, is it murder to kill Hitler?

[brianbbs67]

I would say the sheep KNOW the shepard's voice. I have no Idea how but they do. If He has ever spoken to you, you just know who it is, without a question. Since you have questions, it is either not God or you are very skeptical person.

Another good test is , we as believers can command evil spirits. Be gone, Evil in the name of the Lord! Infact i would do that now. Then, if he still speaks and advises well and things come to pass as told to you. That would be a good indicator.

As to the Bible, it is not perfect and has been changed and added to a lot by the RCC to promote their doctrine. But, enough remains intact that it can still be used for reproof and guidance. Why else would Christ complain that the Pharisees taught as doctrine, the laws of men? Speaking of Christ, his words did not contridict all Pharisees. Infact the head of the Pharisees, in his time was Hillel. Most of the Sayings of Yeshua Christ were already known be followers of Bet Hillel. "Do unto others" Love the Lord your God" "Love your neighbor" "These contain the whole Law" All attribted to Hillel. Hillel had very fierce competition from another House though.

Anyway, Godspeed to you as you go.