Faith, Proof, and Evidence (for Christians)?

[Tart]

I wanted to ask other Christians of their opinions of what they believe about "Faith", "Proof", and "Evidence"...

I think I disagree sometimes with other Christians... That is, that "Faith" is belief without proof or evidence... I just dont believe that. However I recognize that Faith in Jesus, as Savior, is certainly an important component of Christianity. That is to say, we make a conscious decision to accept God, and to have Faith in an all powerful, and all knowing God, that He is in control.. But I personally just dont believe that this is based on no evidence, and neither do i believe that there is no proof of it...

Actually I think Faith is a perfect way to sum up righteousness... I dont think it is possible to live faithfully while sinning, as Christians. But the great thing about this is that Faith isnt based on our action, but on Christ... So when we stumble, it isnt a hopeless situation of falling away, but a renewing situation with Christ, and God "who remains faithful"...

But clearly, there is evidence of God... All around us. Many say creation is evidence of God, physics and natural order is evidence of God, many say humanities ability to connect with god, and to rule as like god, is evidence of being made in Gods image. However i think Jesus is the best evidence of God. And even more so, I personally think Jesus is the proof of God.

While I dont think anyone could deny that there is evidence of God, even if they dont believe it. Because "Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion."... Some people might deny there is any proof of God. But isnt "proof" a subjective word? It is suggesting that something is convincing or not, which might be different for different people...

However, what we can say definitively is that, if Jesus really is the Son of God, lived doing many great signs, died in accordance to the scripture for the forgiveness of sins, and was resurrected by God.. If these things are objectively true, despite what anyone person believe about them (whether they believe the evidence or not, it doesnt matter) If Jesus really is the risen Messiah, and the Son of God, in an objective sense, then Christianity is true, and that is despite what people are convinced about as being "proven". And that even goes the other way too. Paul even confessed in 1 Corinthians 15, that if Jesus wasnt really resurrected, then Christianity is a lie and no one should believe it.


But some times I see Christian saying there is no proof, and that faith isnt based on evidence or proof, and things like that... If you believe that, please feel free to elaborate. I just am curious what Christian believe on the subject.

[marco]

Indeed... The Christian God could make it abundantly clear to anyone, like Paul for example with extraordinary evidence... But does he have to, to everyone? I don't think He does... He could simply chose not to. right?

He is not compelled to do anything, I suppose. But if he chooses to play hide and seek then he can hardly punish those who don't find him or who have no interest in playing. It make a nonsense of the term "unbeliever."

[bluethread]

He is not compelled to do anything, I suppose. But if he chooses to play hide and seek then he can hardly punish those who don't find him or who have no interest in playing. It make a nonsense of the term "unbeliever."

Maybe you can provide an example, but I don't know of anywhere in the Scriptures where the concept of punishment is applied to people who have not established a covenant relationship with Adonai. People who have not established a covenant relationship are treated as the rest of creation. It is not a matter of punishment, but treatment that serves Adonai's purposes. The point of punishment is to reinforce a social standard. If one is not part of a particular society, actions taken against that person by that society can not really be called punishment. One could more rightly refer to it as collateral damage, like removing a hillside to build a road, or the euthanizing of a stray cat.

[rikuoamero]

Were God interested in our interest then he would easily supply proof that gave us the same satisfaction of proving the angle sum in a triangle is 180 degrees. The existence of things around us, working in conformance with formulae we have found makes us wonder whether there is a designer but does not tell us.


I think that seaching for our finite intellect to define God is met with the same frustration of trying to put a gallon into a pint bottle.

Indeed... The Christian God could make it abundantly clear to anyone, like Paul for example with extraordinary evidence... But does he have to, to everyone? I dont think He does... He could simply chose not to. right?

In which case, it would be manifestly unjust to punish those people whom God chose not to make himself clear to, for not believing he's there.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 20 by Tart]

Indeed... The Christian God could make it abundantly clear to anyone, like Paul for example with extraordinary evidence...

With so much at stake you really have to wonder why he doesn't.

But does he have to, to everyone? I dont think He does... He could simply chose not to. right?

Of course he doesn't have to, but in not doing so he is effectively choosing to condemn so many people to an eternity of suffering. Note that it is a consequence of his choice. Time to quit heaping the blame on fallible humans.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 20 by Tart]

Indeed... The Christian God could make it abundantly clear to anyone, like Paul for example with extraordinary evidence...

With so much at stake you really have to wonder why he doesn't.

But does he have to, to everyone? I dont think He does... He could simply chose not to. right?

Of course he doesn't have to, but in not doing so he is effectively choosing to condemn so many people to an eternity of suffering. Note that it is a consequence of his choice. Time to quit heaping the blame on fallible humans.

Who knows why He does what He does? But, I am one who doesn't believe you are condemned for unbelief. That is crazy . I do believe every one will be judged by their actions, though. Even the Pope said a righteous Athiest could find Heaven.

[Guy Threepwood]

[Replying to post 1 by Tart]

I'd agree with that mostly, and that having faith is a conscious act we all partake in. Having faith that your car will get you safely to your destination, or putting faith in another person. You don't have proof, but you have enough evidence to act as if there were

A person may also put faith in a materialistic world view, live according to that assumption without proof.

As long as we acknowledge our faith, our beliefs as such, we can all get along. It's when people start declaring their beliefs 'undeniable facts' that the problems usually begin don't they?

[ttruscott]

Who knows why He does what He does? But, I am one who doesn't believe you are condemned for unbelief. That is crazy . I do believe every one will be judged by their actions, though. Even the Pope said a righteous Athiest could find Heaven.

I argue that the Pope is wrong.

Why is unfaith a damnable offence?
Preamble:
The unbelief that condemns is the unbelief that means no faith or unfaith if you will. The English belief means either
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

But we know that these two definitions are not equal because the demons know Jesus was the holy one of GOD yet remained condemned. So even belief in a certain proven knowledge does not bring you out of judgment: Rom 1:20 says we all have clearly seen the PROOF of HIS divinity and power so we have no excuse for our rejection of HIS being and HIS glory and so remain in HIS wrath.

So while English syntax must use the word belief sometimes, in spiritual things it must always refer to faith, an unproven hope (Heb 11:1) not "belief" in a proven truth.

Will you not be judged if you believe GOD is, ie, exists? The demons believe and they tremble in fear of their self chosen fate: James 2:19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

Why is unfaith a damnable offence?
Conclusion:
The verse says: John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. in which belief here means faith, ie, they refused to put their trust, faith, or confidence in HIS Son. because just believing in HIS existence does not save anyone anyway.

Why would they do this? What could induce them to put themselves at risk of hell by rejecting the salvation the Son offered, especially in the face of the sinful elect doing just that, accepting YHWH as their GOD and getting free of hell by accepting the Son as their saviour then going their own way to do what they want???

The reason they might do this that makes the most sense to me is that when every creature heard the proclamation of the gospel, Col 1:23, they decided that YHWH was lying to us all, that HE was a false god and a liar driven by evil to manipulate our worship, sinning the unforgivable sin. Thus they became sinful without ever putting their faith in HIM or HIS Son.

Because they rejected HIM as their saviour HE cannot help them against their free will which must be sacrosanct or free is not free at all.

Neither can they save themselves after becoming enslaved by the addictive power of evil so in this way they became eternally evil, fit only to be banished from this reality to the outer darkness so they don't contaminate the telepathic link of the heavenly marriage.

[Divine Insight]

Were God interested in our interest then he would easily supply proof that gave us the same satisfaction of proving the angle sum in a triangle is 180 degrees. The existence of things around us, working in conformance with formulae we have found makes us wonder whether there is a designer but does not tell us.


I think that seaching for our finite intellect to define God is met with the same frustration of trying to put a gallon into a pint bottle.

Indeed... The Christian God could make it abundantly clear to anyone, like Paul for example with extraordinary evidence... But does he have to, to everyone? I dont think He does... He could simply chose not to. right?

In which case, it would be manifestly unjust to punish those people whom God chose not to make himself clear to, for not believing he's there.

I totally agree with Rikuoamero here.

Any God who want to claim to be just and trustworthy cannot be condemning people for basing their conclusions are false information.

The argument that the Biblical God can just do anything he wants without considering how just or trustworthy his actions would be is an argument that fails miserably for the Biblical God, precisely because the Biblical God is supposed to be just and trustworthy.

This kind of argument could hold for say, Zeus, because no one has ever claimed that Zeus is a just and trustworthy God. If Zeus wan't to kill someone or harm them just because he feels like it, that fine. No one can object to that, because no one ever claimed that Zeus is just and trustworthy.

But that argument cannot be brought over to the God of the Bible. Excuses that the Biblical God can act in ways that are neither just nor trustworthy automatically violate Biblical theology. At least, any Biblical theology that wants to claim that God is righteous, just, and trustworthy.

However, if you toss those character traits out, then you have a God that is not righteous, not just, and not trustworthy. And that's not going to fly very well in Biblical theology.

So this is a failed apology for the behavior of the Biblical God. The Biblical God must make absolutely certain that his existence and demands are perfectly understood by all humans without exception. And we already know that many humans are not convinced that he even exists. So in that observation alone we already have definitive proof that the Biblical God cannot be real.