Could it be, that Jesus-worshiping Christians

[Elijah John]

Could it be that Jesus-worshiping Christians are worshiping an innocent man who never asked for any of this?

If not, what makes you so certain that Jesus-worship is not a violation of the First Commandment?

[Divine Insight]

Could it be that Jesus-worshiping Christians are worshiping an innocent man who never asked for any of this?

If not, what makes you so certain that Jesus-worship is not a violation of the First Commandment?

In Christianity Jesus is necessarily sin-free. He supposedly never committed so much as a single solitary sin.

Therefore Jesus cannot have been a man in this religion. For if he was a man he would have vindicated all of humanity by having been a human who was able to resist sin.

Christianity cannot have this. Therefore Jesus had to be God.

Of course, this doesn't make any sense either, but that's a whole other issue.

Jesus cannot have been a man in Christianity. He also cannot have been a demigod since this would require that Christianity become a polytheistic religion. Therefore Jesus can only be an incarnation of the one and only God himself. Thus the invention of the "Trinity" which also makes no sense, but is clearly the only solution left for this theology.

Therefore Jesus and God are somehow "one in the same".

This has to be true in Christianity lest the entire religion falls apart.

Of course, it actually falls apart even allowing this to be the case, but as I said earlier that's a whole other issue.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Be that as it may, that Christianity as we know it stands or falls on the matter, what is your opinion (with evidence)? Do you believe there was a real, historical Jesus, a man in first century Palestine who preached? And if so, do you think Trinitarian Christianity as we have it today is what this man Jesus intended?

Did Jesus ask for Jesus-worship?

[bjs]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Of course it is possible that he NT is false and that Jesus did not claim that he was the son of God – in Jewish culture at the time that would unquestionably be a claim of being God.

If someone thought that NT was false and the OT, including the first of the Ten Commandments, is true then that person would be Jewish.

On the other hand orthodox Christians believe that both the NT and OT are true. Just saying, “Could it be…� is not a reason to change that belief.

[Divine Insight]

Do you believe there was a real, historical Jesus, a man in first century Palestine who preached?

It appears to me that there were quite many Jews preaching similar things in those days. I wouldn't doubt that there was a "historical Jesus" (i.e. a preaching Jew who vehemently argued with religious authorities and was possibly crucified for apostasy)

In fact, even if it could be demonstrated to be historically true that such a man existed, I would still have no reason to think that this man had anything to do with any God.

And if so, do you think Trinitarian Christianity as we have it today is what this man Jesus intended?

I seriously doub, if there was a Jesus, that he necessarily had any long-term intentions at all. Especially in terms of starting any new religions. In fact, the Gospels themselves have Jesus predicting that everything he had prophesied would take place before the current generation had passed. So how this ever became a religion beyond his generation is beyond me. Clearly people aren't even paying attention to what these rumors are claiming about Jesus.

Did Jesus ask for Jesus-worship?

According to the Gospel rumors he did. He proclaimed that his followers should love him over their families and even themselves. So based on the Gospels themselves it certainly appears that Jesus was seeking to be worshiped by his followers.

He was asking people to renounce their own families and drop any social responsibilities they might have had to follow him. And many Christians even today place Jesus above any social responsibility they might have, and even about their own families in many cases.

So yes, I would say that the Gospels have Jesus asking for Jesus-worship.

Evidence?

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Sure sounds to me like Jesus was not merely asking to be worshiped but he was basically demanding it.

[brianbbs67]

Christ never asked for worship and told us to pray to the Father only. He did claim to be the son of man. Sent by the Father. 6 Months after John the Baptist, born at passover. So, Christ was actually likely born around this time of year. Since he never claimed divinity and asked us to ask of the Father in Christ's name, why would modern Christianity pray to and worship him? Its non scriptural and as you said, violates the first commandment.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I am exploring this idea in another thread (Jesus' Return - Problem's associated with this belief...)

Could it be that Jesus-worshiping Christians are worshiping an innocent man who never asked for any of this?

If not, what makes you so certain that Jesus-worship is not a violation of the First Commandment?

I do not think the first commandment is necessarily anything different than any other type of idolatry.
It is not established that the GOD-idea of the OT is a true representation, and thus - even that no image can be made out of the GOD, he has been known to be of form and also the holy books of Judaism and other such artifacts are often revered in the same manner as are idols.

The best idea to adopt in relation to any ideas of GODs, is to NOT to worship them in any way which might be construed as idolatry.

In that, I think the following words are on target in regard to this;

[font=Comic Sans MS]All of your religions teach the worship of a deity and a doctrine of human salvation. It is the underlying kinship of your planet’s religions. However, I am not the deity that your worship falls upon, nor am I the creator of your doctrines of human salvation. Worship of me in coin or moral consideration is unnecessary. Simply express your authentic feelings of appreciation to my inmost presence within you and others, and you broadcast your worship unfailingly into my realm.
This is the feeling that you should seek to preserve in the face of life’s distractions. This is the revelation of my heart to your heart. Live in clarity. Live in purpose. Live in the knowledge that you are in me and I am in you, and that there is no place separate from our heart.[/font] ~ Excerpt from Chamber 23—One of three written elements from the body of work known as the WingMakers, ascribed to First Source.


If anything, the biblical stories could be said to be a stepping-stone toward the above type of thinking. Humans would do well to drop their desire to worship in the manner they are well practiced at. Isn't Jesus said to have spoken the words "Worship GOD in spirit and in truth"?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Of course it is possible that he NT is false and that Jesus did not claim that he was the son of God – in Jewish culture at the time that would unquestionably be a claim of being God.

You sure about that? It's my understanding that to a Jewish audience, "Son of God" in no way means "God incarnate". But only someone specially annointed of God, or collectively, Israel as a whole.

If someone thought that NT was false and the OT, including the first of the Ten Commandments, is true then that person would be Jewish.

Not necessarily, they could be Noahides, or another form of "God-Fearer" and hold that view. People who embrace the God of Israel without actually converting to Judaism.

On the other hand orthodox Christians believe that both the NT and OT are true. Just saying, “Could it be…� is not a reason to change that belief.

True and open to interpretation? Or true and open only to the interpretation of Pope or Pastor? Even the New Testament does not definitively state that "Jesus is God". JWs, for example, make a very compelling argument that it does not.

And what are the stakes? Let's do a variation of Pascal's Wager. Even if Jesus is God, but a given faithful Christian does not believe him to be such, where is it ever suggested (even in the NT) that would be sin?

On the other hand, if it turns out that Jesus is not God, and people worship him as such, how serious an idolatry would that be?

Not exactly Baal-worship, but still...

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

I believe the Greek on that was actually "Love less". I am not an expert. But, it seems the Greeks had at least 8 words for everything. I guess they were trying to be specific. Who knows?

[brianbbs67]

Only 5 here, but the comments and links tell the rest

How many Greek words for everything are there?

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-Greek ... everything