Open and honest conversation

[WPG12]

Open and honest conversation is something that just doesn't happen today.
Through conversation we find an exchange of thought, thoughts that can possibly make a person richer, spiritually speaking. What does happen today? Different groups try to trap each other with an argument, both sides just swing their own swords, instead of trying to understand the others argument. I think most people are guilty of it, one side would never buy what the other is selling. Open, honest conversation allows either side to or sell their own thoughts without trying to trap the other, or just swing a sword.

Spiritually speaking, buying or selling is conversation, open and honest conversation, where a different understanding is looked for, maybe a better understanding, maybe a worthless understanding that isn't worth a grain of salt.

The question s, could Revelations be true, has that mark already been issued? Are our thoughts, and works worth buying or selling?

Most people think in carnal terms, and think that mark is a physical thing, but could it be a spiritual mark? Pride possibly? A stiff neck, where we can't turn and look to see if we could be wrong? Pride, thinking our own thoughts are better than any others, could easily cause conversation to turn into a war, and cause nothing to be bought or sold, spiritually speaking.

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 10 by marco]

I never said I was an exception to anything, but I will try to understand why someone says what they say, before attempting to answer. If you can show me how revelation is non-sensical. I'd try to understand why you say that, before I answer.

[marco]

[Replying to post 10 by marco]

I never said I was an exception to anything, but I will try to understand why someone says what they say, before attempting to answer. If you can show me how revelation is non-sensical. I'd try to understand why you say that, before I answer.

That's a fair response. Given that's your honest methodology, you are indeed an exception to the rule you stated in the OP. If I give my reasons for doubting Revelation they are surely honest, as is your attempt to take meaning out of Revelation.


Obviously some game playing goes on; many of us are competitors who don't like losing at chess; but some of us at least see impressive arguments from the side they oppose, and often say so. That I think is honest enough.

I see you joined us this month so perhaps a different judgment may emerge when you've studied a reasonable sample of replies. I hope so. Go well.

[brianbbs67]

Open and honest conversation is something that just doesn't happen today.
Through conversation we find an exchange of thought, thoughts that can possibly make a person richer, spiritually speaking. What does happen today? Different groups try to trap each other with an argument, both sides just swing their own swords, instead of trying to understand the others argument. I think most people are guilty of it, one side would never buy what the other is selling. Open, honest conversation allows either side to or sell their own thoughts without trying to trap the other, or just swing a sword.

Spiritually speaking, buying or selling is conversation, open and honest conversation, where a different understanding is looked for, maybe a better understanding, maybe a worthless understanding that isn't worth a grain of salt.

The question s, could Revelations be true, has that mark already been issued? Are our thoughts, and works worth buying or selling?

Most people think in carnal terms, and think that mark is a physical thing, but could it be a spiritual mark? Pride possibly? A stiff neck, where we can't turn and look to see if we could be wrong? Pride, thinking our own thoughts are better than any others, could easily cause conversation to turn into a war, and cause nothing to be bought or sold, spiritually speaking.

Revelations can be interpreted many, many ways. With almost no end in sight. Are we not told that no one in Heaven or Earth knows when the Lord returns? So, I read and watch it but never expect to know it all with certainty. Some think Revelations was all coded message from John to the churches when he was in exile.

Could the mark be already upon us? Sure, but it is said to be a human number, 666. Which some think was Ceasar, others , an actual number.

LOng story, short. I don't dwell on the end of this world. I do dwell on being good and drawing as nigh to God so He will draw nigh to me. The rest will sort itself.

[marco]

Long story, short. I don't dwell on the end of this world. I do dwell on being good and drawing as nigh to God so He will draw nigh to me. The rest will sort itself.

A good philosophy, brian; for God will unravel the tangled knots for us if he's there. The idea of a God playing hide and seek and imposing penalties if we children cannot find him is an idea from man's dark past.

Revelation is just a text on demonology, a mess of symbol and surmise, not unlike the 15th century book Malleus Maleficarum, the Hammer of Witches. Perhaps we love to frighten ourselves and others. "How do I take all this?" I once asked a priest when I was an enquiring adolescent. "The work of a drunkard," he said. That about fits the picture.

It is so much NON-revelation that we can draw anything we want from it: Nero, Napoleon, Hitler, the Papacy, Islam, Attila the Hun, Fast Food Stores, The Abominable Snowman, fake saints … and the wonder is when people who would struggle over a crossword find a meaning for beast or horseman or the Whore of Babylon (wonderful title!) they invariably think they have struck golden truth. Make something as confused as you like and there is meaning in its untangling. It is little different from consulting horoscopes to find out what the week will bring, and less accurate.

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 13 by brianbbs67]

I don't dwell on the end of the world, but it's not a physical world that men destroy. It is a spiritual world that men destroy, then try to rebuild in their own way, and that has already happened, long ago.

Of course 666 is the number of a man, adonikam, a name which means "he is risen", if you stop and really pay attention, or care enough to, you may see how once peter shut the door on the Spirit, everything Jesus taught was destroyed. Men today claim that Spirit lives in them, the have to turn to men to know what that Spirit says. Every thought and action they have says that the Spirit of Christ is dead.

Men claim the body of Christ lives, while they wait on a ressurrection. Much like peter who claims to be "begotten again" they have no understanding. Living body's are not ressurrection, the "body of Christ" cannot be resurrected if it lives. Once that stone is rolled out of the way, maybe you'll see the body is not in that tomb.

[marco]

but it's not a physical world that men destroy.

Well they do an exceptionally good job of that too. Their destruction of the spiritual world is less obvious, certainly to me.

Much like peter who claims to be "begotten again" they have no understanding.

I'm warming to Peter. I am wondering how those "with understanding" acquired this esoteric knowledge. By osmosis maybe?

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 16 by marco]

Nothing esoteric about it, it's not built on some secret knowledge in any way. That's gnoticism.

How did they gain that understanding?

They put down their pride, that stiff neck, which does not allow me to turn and look, and looked at their own path.

[marco]

How did they gain that understanding?

They put down their pride, that stiff neck, which does not allow me to turn and look, and looked at their own path.

I suppose that approach works only for understanding statements in the gospel. You are claiming knowledge arrives miraculously where in every other sphere we gain knowledge and understanding by study. Many fields of learning are denied to the majority because they are so difficult to comprehend, but setting pride aside is the way to obtain the kind of understanding that Paul had and Peter missed out on?

We can become better individuals by being humble; and by thinking of others rather than of ourselves we can get a glimpse of goodness. But I don't think knowledge comes from hopeful expectation. It would be nice if it did, and save many the tedium of studying for doctorates. The man in the street, however much he discards his pride or straightens his neck, remains the man in the street - unenlightened.

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 18 by marco]

"you are claiming knowledge arrives miraculously where in every other sphere we gain knowledge and understanding by study"

I never claimed that at all.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20 KJV

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psalms 19:1‭-‬3 KJV


Its always right in front of our faces, men just refuse to see it.

Just like those preachers who say God doesn't speak to men these days, God does speak men just do not listen. They are deaf and blind.

[marco]

[Replying to post 18 by marco]

"you are claiming knowledge arrives miraculously where in every other sphere we gain knowledge and understanding by study"

I never claimed that at all.

You said:

How did they gain that understanding?

They put down their pride, that stiff neck, which does not allow me to turn and look, and looked at their own path.

To me that is a miraculous acquisition of knowledge.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20 KJV

Making deductions from what we see leads to error. Newton made such deductions but failed to take into consideration the speed of light. Of course it would be remarkable if Paul understood such subtleties and so he glibly affirms that all we do is look around us and we are filled with understanding.

Its always right in front of our faces, men just refuse to see it.

And we have to remember that Paul thought heaven was up in the sky somewhere. It is simplistic to say that we discover by looking, as if we are all 4-year-old toddlers.
This view led people to think that the Earth is the centre of the universe.