If Jesus died to "pay for" our sins..

[Elijah John]

If Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, why didn't he go around preaching "I'm going to die to pay for your sins"?

Could it be that doctrine is only a theological interpretation of Jesus martrydom? An interpretation after the fact?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

He did. He preached that he is the anointed one, proclaiming the Good News about the release from being captive to sin.

"So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.� With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. Then he began to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.� - Luke 4:17-21

Yet Jesus' main preaching point was about God's Kingdom to come and not to honor himself in his role as the ransom. He was sent to fulfill the covenants God made with mankind. One being the Abrahamic covenant, where all the families of Earth will be blessed.

[bjs]

[Replying to Elijah John]

In Matthew 20:28 Jesus said, “the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.�


In Mark 10:45 Jesus said, “for even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.�


In John 15:13 Jesus said, “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.�

The idea of him dying as a ransom for others seems to be a common theme in Jesus teaching, and he expressly stated that it was way he came.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

He did. He preached that he is the anointed one, proclaiming the Good News about the release from being captive to sin.

"So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.� With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. Then he began to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.� - Luke 4:17-21

Yet Jesus' main preaching point was about God's Kingdom to come and not to honor himself in his role as the ransom. He was sent to fulfill the covenants God made with mankind. One being the Abrahamic covenant, where all the families of Earth will be blessed.

Jesus only mentions "ransom" about once per Gospel. Why doesn't he repeat it, in the Parables and in the Sermon on the Mount? He sure didn't emphasize it. The passage from Isaiah has nothing to do with the annointed dying to "pay for" sins. Only proclaiming God's mercy and forgiveness.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

In Matthew 20:28 Jesus said, “the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.�


In Mark 10:45 Jesus said, “for even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.�


In John 15:13 Jesus said, “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.�

The idea of him dying as a ransom for others seems to be a common theme in Jesus teaching, and he expressly stated that it was way he came.

Ransom just mentioned a few times. Seems likely a theological allusion placed on Jesus lips by the Gospel evangelists. Again after the fact.

The thrust of Jesus preaching by contrast, seems to have been proclaiming the love and mercy of the Father. This based on simple repentance, as taught in the parables of the Podigal Son, the Lost Coin, the Lost Sheep, the Beattitudes and the LORD's Prayer. Seems a theme of the Father's mercy based on simple repentance..All without the bloodshed of ransom.

Seems the message of ransom is an afterthought, and not part of Jesus ministry from the start. Something to make sense of the unexpected opposition unto death that Jesus encounterd along the way.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

In Matthew 20:28 Jesus said, “the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.�


In Mark 10:45 Jesus said, “for even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.�


In John 15:13 Jesus said, “Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.�

The idea of him dying as a ransom for others seems to be a common theme in Jesus teaching, and he expressly stated that it was way he came.

Ransom just mentioned a few times. Seems likely a theological allusion placed on Jesus lips by the Gospel evangelists. Again after the fact.

The thrust of Jesus preaching by contrast, seems to have been proclaiming the love and mercy of the Father. This based on simple repentance, as taught in the parables of the Podigal Son, the Lost Coin, the Lost Sheep, the Beattitudes and the LORD's Prayer. Seems a theme of the Father's mercy based on simple repentance..All without the bloodshed of ransom.

Seems the message of ransom is an afterthought, and not part of Jesus ministry from the start. Something to make sense of the unexpected opposition unto death that Jesus encounterd along the way.

[2timothy316]

Jesus only mentions "ransom" about once per Gospel.

How many times does he need to say it before we should accept it?
If a person says to another, "I'm going to save your life." How many times does a person need someone to say something before they believe them? If words are not enough...what if that person actually dies to save their life...would they believe them then? Did that person die in vain?

[Tcg]

How many times does he need to say it before we should accept it?

Given that we weren't there, he didn't say anything to any of us.

If a person says to another, "I'm going to save your life." How many times does a person need someone to say something before they believe them?

I'm not sure. In this case however, Jesus should have made it much clear that his death would result in some sort of victory. The disciples (except Peter who denied knowing Jesus) scattered before Jesus' crucifixion. If they understood this as a victory, they should have thrown a party.

If words are not enough...what if that person actually dies to save their life...would they believe them then?

Jesus remained dead for a couple days, depending on who is counting, and all the disciples, if we are to accept unsupported tradition, died for following Jesus. According to the story, he didn't save any lives.

Did that person die in vain?

Yep.

[showme]

If Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, why didn't he go around preaching "I'm going to die to pay for your sins"?

Could it be that doctrine is only a theological interpretation of Jesus martrydom? An interpretation after the fact?

Jeremiah 31:30, "every one will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge."

Mankind dies and is sick for his own iniquities, and that remains true to this day. The false gospel of grace, is the gospel of the false prophet Paul, who came to help the "beast" deceive those "who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14).

[Elijah John]

Jesus only mentions "ransom" about once per Gospel.

How many times does he need to say it before we should accept it?
If a person says to another, "I'm going to save your life." How many times does a person need someone to say something before they believe them? If words are not enough...what if that person actually dies to save their life...would they believe them then? Did that person die in vain?

One would think the central and essential message of a preacher would be repeated. Especially if one's salvation depended on understanding and consciously accepting that message.

Not once, as in "I said it once, will not repeat it, sorry you missed it, but oh well, your (eternal) loss".