Did Jesus really rise from the dead?

[polonius]

Christianity is based on the claim that Jesus rose from the dead.

Let's look at the history we have.

Jesus was crucified by the Romans in the 30-33 AD time frame. (Outside of the New Testament we have reports by Josephus and Tacitus, both non-christian historians.

When was it first written that Jesus had risen from the dead and by whom?

[polonius]

Anybody who has studied this should know that none of the Gospels were written by actual disciples of christ . Mark was Paul's secretary. Matthew was originally titled "the sayings of Yeshua christ". Luke was obviously a second or third generation believer. John could have been written by, John, but even that is a stretch.

Does that discount them all? No. But, skeptical minds want to know.

Question: How did you conclude that Mark was Paul's secretary? And that the same Mark wrote a gospel?

Well, I didn't. It was a typo. Mark, author of Mark's Gospel, was Peter's secretary. Sorry for the confusion.

Random confirming reference

https://taylormarshall.com/2015/01/secr ... -paul.html

RESPONSE: Mark was a very common name. How did you determine that Mark who wrote the gospel is the same Mark who was Peter's secretary?

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 38 by polonius.advice]

What do the dates the books were written have to do with whether Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were contemporaries.

You have a hypothesis that says these books were written at a later date. But this has nothing to do with whether these men were portrayed as contemporaries in Scripture, which they are.

I understand that you are losing the discussion but please try to stay logical at least.

If you are saying that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not portrayed in Scripture do you have evidence of that.

Your hypothesis, at least the scholarly one, says that Matthew was not the writer that someone at a later date did. It does not suggest these men were not contemporaries in scripture.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 38 by polonius.advice]

What do the dates the books were written have to do with whether Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were contemporaries.

You have a hypothesis that says these books were written at a later date. But this has nothing to do with whether these men were portrayed as contemporaries in Scripture, which they are.

I understand that you are losing the discussion but please try to stay logical at least.

If you are saying that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not portrayed in Scripture do you have evidence of that.

Your hypothesis, at least the scholarly one, says that Matthew was not the writer that someone at a later date did. It does not suggest these men were not contemporaries in scripture.

RESPONSE:

What do the dates the books were written have to do with whether Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were contemporaries.

If I write a book about the Civil War, can I claim to then be a contemporary? Common sense?

It had to do with if the writers of the gospels were really Apostles. Apparently, none were.

At the very best they were just repeating old legends which contain some noteable errors.

eg. Following his birth, was Jesus brought to Egypt (Matthw) or returned to Nazareth (Luke). Where did these stories come from?

Did Jesus send for and ride one animal (Mark, Luke, John) or two different animals (Matthew) when entering Jerusalem? Were all four writers eyewitnesses to the incident?

All four Gospels have Jesus anointed by a woman. Was that just a woman, a sinful women (prostitute), or the sister of Lazarus? Was Jesus' feet or head anointed? Did all four gospel writers witness this anointing?

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 42 by polonius.advice]

First, if you are going to make an analogy at least use a correct analogy please. If you were writing about the Civil War, I would surely hope you would say that Lincoln, Grant and Sherman were all contemporaries of each other. The writer has nothing to do with whether the characters, he is writing about, are contemporaries or not.

Second, do you even read what you are writing about or do you only go on what people that agree with you say.
Matthew 2 has Jesus going to Egypt and coming back from Egypt.

Matthew 21:5 says that Jesus was riding on a colt. In fact, Matthew and John quote the same verse from Zachariah. Matthew has more details than the rest because he was there and Mark and Luke were not. This is actually evidence of how Matthew did not use Mark to write his gospel. He did not need to because he was there.

The Woman anointing Jesus was Mary. She anointed His head and His feet. The scripture does not say she was a prostitute only that she was a sinner. And then she wiped his feet with her tears. The differences in the narrative is what you would expect from eyewitnesses. In fact, if people tell the exact same story with the exact same words to the police. They would think that it was a fabrication.


Try again

[polonius]

[Replying to post 42 by polonius.advice]

First, if you are going to make an analogy at least use a correct analogy please. If you were writing about the Civil War, I would surely hope you would say that Lincoln, Grant and Sherman were all contemporaries of each other. The writer has nothing to do with whether the characters, he is writing about, are contemporaries or not.

Second, do you even read what you are writing about or do you only go on what people that agree with you say.
Matthew 2 has Jesus going to Egypt and coming back from Egypt.

Matthew 21:5 says that Jesus was riding on a colt. In fact, Matthew and John quote the same verse from Zachariah. Matthew has more details than the rest because he was there and Mark and Luke were not. This is actually evidence of how Matthew did not use Mark to write his gospel. He did not need to because he was there.

The Woman anointing Jesus was Mary. She anointed His head and His feet. The scripture does not say she was a prostitute only that she was a sinner. And then she wiped his feet with her tears. The differences in the narrative is what you would expect from eyewitnesses. In fact, if people tell the exact same story with the exact same words to the police. They would think that it was a fabrication.


Try again

RESPONSE: So are you saying the anointing of Jesus was only one event? Lazarus's sister, who was a very sinful woman. anointed both Jesus' head and feet? Is that it?

So we have four different stories from four different writers. Which is "God breathed"?

https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/ ... rucifixion

1. The account in Matthew and Mark takes place in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper, right around the time of the crucifixion, "two days before the passover" it seems. The issue of spending money on the poor instead comes up. The woman who annointed Jesus and cried here is not identified, but she's said to be a sinner, clearly a notorious sinner.

2. The account in John also takes place in Bethany, and the woman there is clearly identified as Mary the sister of Martha and of Lazarus, and that whole family is there. The house is not identified, and Judas is the one who objects to the ointment being used this way rather than sold and given to the poor.

3. The account in Luke is not clearly identified as to place, is in the house of Simon the Pharisee, and appears almost certainly to be much earlier than the week before the crucifixion. In this case, the objection made is by the host, although silently, and the basis for it is that he thinks Jesus ought to have known the woman's sinfulness, and, presumably, rebuked her. The objection about wasting money that might have been given to the poor is not mentioned. And Jesus tells a parable to Simon, the host, by way of explanation and, in a sense, mild rebuke.

4. If one assumes that Luke intends his chronology here to be accurate, then this could not be the same incident as that given by Matthew and Mark, or that given by John. Other details are also different. Thus I would think that it refers to a different incident."

In fact, Matthew and John quote the same verse from Zachariah. Matthew has more details than the rest because he was there and Mark and Luke were not.

RESPONSE: But you overlooked that fact that Matthew says Jesus rode two animals because he misinterpreted the Zachariah prophecy and wasn't there to see what really happened.

It's amazing how many contradictions supposed "God breathed" scripture contains.

[JehovahsWitness]

3. The account in Luke is not clearly identified as to place, ... and appears almost certainly to be much earlier than the week before the crucifixion.

What information in the gospel of Luke, places the events he reports, in Jesus final week?


JW

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

When was it first written that Jesus had risen from the dead and by whom?

I disagree with your assessment in post 2 and the theme introduced. We must be reading from different books.

The information about the resurrection of the Christ was recorded in "all" the gospels.

Matthew 28: especially verses 5-7
Mark 16: especially verses 6 and 9-11
Luke 24: especially verses 6-7
John 20: verses 14-17, 19 and 20

RESPONSE

I'm using the NEW REVISED STANDARD VERSION, Produced by the World Council of Churches.

Please cite what "information" you are referring to.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

When was it first written that Jesus had risen from the dead and by whom?

I disagree with your assessment in post 2 and the theme introduced. We must be reading from different books.

The information about the resurrection of the Christ was recorded in "all" the gospels.

Matthew 28: especially verses 5-7
Mark 16: especially verses 6 and 9-11
Luke 24: especially verses 6-7
John 20: verses 14-17, 19 and 20

RESPONSE And the earliest written was Mark in about 70 AD or 40 years after the
the crucifixion. And Mark was not an apostle nor does he claim to be a witness.

[polonius]

3. The account in Luke is not clearly identified as to place, ... and appears almost certainly to be much earlier than the week before the crucifixion.

What information in the gospel of Luke, places the events he reports, in Jesus final week?


JW

Please cite the events you are writing about and the thread and the post number you are referring to.

[JehovahsWitness]

Please ignore, I misread your post. I supposed you were placing the events in Luke in the "holy week" which it seems you are not.

All four Gospels have Jesus anointed by a woman. Was that just a woman, a sinful women (prostitute), or the sister of Lazarus?

I agree with your conclusion, Luke's gopspel was not reporting the same event as the other three gospel writers. Two different events, two different women.

4. If one assumes that Luke intends his chronology here to be accurate, then this could not be the same incident as that given by Matthew and Mark, or that given by John. Other details are also different. Thus I would think that it refers to a different incident."

JW