Church Life

[SeaPriestess]

Hello,

I recently decided to start going back to church. There are a few ways I want to contribute. There are some things, creative things I want to do with music and maybe theater. For years I struggled with the thought of going back to church because there were just so many things I could not reconcile. I'm not trying to do that here, necessarily. However, it is my suspicion that the type of church I'll feel most comfortable in may not desire a deeper spiritual life but more like being part of a social club. On the other hand, the type of church, where people are really there as an act of meaningful spiritual ritual may tend to be too "religious", legalistic, judgmental, non-inclusive etc...I've been in those churches in the past. My conscience will not let me do that now in my life. But maybe, just maybe, I could still attend those types of churches. How will I navigate the bigotry etc....Isn't that sad though? Not hopeful that I can find authentic Christians/Jesus lovers who are into their faith and church life but who aren't mistaken in their understanding of scripture and how to apply it. Maybe I should just bag the whole idea. Idk....So, my question is, how to navigate in a church environment when you disagree with the general culture of the group and/or what is being taught? When do you know if it's time to move on? I was going to let my conscience guide me, not only my conscience of course, but if I was given the types of opportunities I was looking for, there might be my answer?

Thank you.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Why thank you for the kind, humble and sincere offering. So sweet.

You're most welcome. I forgot to mention choirs, a lot of pop and rock stars actually launched their professional careers in church choirs so you never know where following your dreams may take you.

I'm sure you can find many like minded people if you know where to look.


Regards,
JW

[2timothy316]

Hello Seaprestess, many are looking for the right church to join. It's like a person that is trying to identify all the counterfeit bills in the world. No one can ever hope to find these bills by comparing counterfeit bills to other counterfeit bills. The only way to find all the counterfeit bills is to study a real bill. Is it even possible to know who truly are God's church? I believe it is.

2 Timothy 3:16, 17 says, "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

I have for you a couple of questions. Do you trust the above scripture to be true? Can we trust the Bible as the Word of God? If I showed you the identifying marks of the real 'bill' so-to-speak from the Bible would that help?

Hmmmm, ya know, after all the responses in this thread, I really need to ponder some more. It's been enlightening. But without getting into too much back and forth at this time, I will say this in response to your message...I know who God's church is and it isn't necessarily housed in a building. The pulpit is also flawed, so many of the true church is listening to false teaching. Its doesn't mean necessarily that they are not the true church. They are just misled, sometimes. Some weeks the Pastor may be on, some weeks, he may not be. Or they may be interpreting and applying certain areas of scripture in a way that can be clearly shown as wrong. I'm not about to fight that battle there or here. I know what the identifying marks are. A building of people can still have the identifying marks but be mislead in other areas of scripture that can be intolerable to me. I'm trying to deal with that concept without debating what what those topics are. So, I probably have already answered my own question but the responses here have been a good catalyst.

The reason I asked if you thought 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 was true is because many do not believe it to be true. Personally I have found that the Bible is the key to understanding, well everything related to God. Including that it's not people that should be interpreting the Bible but to let scripture explain scripture. If we are not supposed to be using the Bible to identify false teachings then what should people be using and is it approved by God?

It's good to explore our beliefs deeper. It is good to be aware of our own spiritual needs. In fact Jesus said in Matthew 5:3 "“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them."

The question is, what is the source of fulfilling that spiritual need?

[Overcomer]

SeaPriestess wrote:

Its funny you say you couldn't "stay" in a church unless they taught primary doctrines. But what if God wanted you to stay there and be a good influence. How the heck are they going to start teaching the right doctrines? What if God starts working in their hearts and things change. So, we're only supposed to stay to ourselves? What if you had the opportunity to serve a need in that church?

Yes, it's possible that God can ask someone to stay in a church to be light and salt there. I have some friends who have remained in churches that have strayed from God's Word because they feel called to be there. As one friend put it, what if someone new comes along and has no idea what's right and what's wrong about Jesus and there isn't anybody in the church to tell him/her? That's why she stays in what has become an apostate church. But she isn't alone. There are others there who feel called to do the same thing alongside her. That's important. It's hard to thrive and effect changes when one is all alone. It's healthiest to have a cohort of Spirit-filled, Bible-believing Christians around you.

God bless you in your search, SeaPriestess.

[SeaPriestess]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

Thank you, and agreed. But many people, even the most sincere, devout, God loving, God fearing people can take a series of chapters and verses and still create a "religion" around it, or a doctrine. So, I stay away from all manner of debating details. Its exhausting and honestly I find it incredibly irrelevant. Yes, the scripture says all scripture can be used etc...etc...But that doesnt mean you cant just as easily take an "umbrella" truth and apply it to a situation. It's still scripture, its still valid. Yet, these well meaning frightful souls sometimes will not feel comfortable trusting that particular verse in a particular situation because someone of "authority" told them not to or they couldn't or that they were wrong to do so. I personally like to think in terms of "big picture". There are verses that sort of create a big picture, a big umbrella you can weigh something against if in doubt and if there isn't anything specific about a certain topic. Sometimes, we will use a certain context in the bible and apply it to a completely different context because we are not living in 1st century Palestine. But we will be most adamant that it applies because it's scripture. So, yes I believe the Timothy verses you quoted. What does it actually prove? Here are my go to "umbrella" verses that I live my life by and pretty much use to judge anything and everything if I'm conflicted or uncomfortable:

Cor 13 -Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, [c]thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

That's really all the scripture anyone needs, in my opinion. But there are a few others I like to hang on my wall. The 2 Greatest Commandments and the verses in Phill 2- For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God MAKES you do what he wants. If you say sincerely everyday "Holy Spirit, lead me, guide me". That's it.

But see, its too simple. Surely that cant be true because what about this that and the other thing? And that's how people start misusing scripture.

Bottom line is this, it's a great "Umbrella" chapter that can be used for all the things your Timothy verses are saying(And again I'm answering my own question now about how to navigate in a church where I disagree):

Romans 14- Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’�

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

In other words, a person's faith is tied to their conscience. Who am I to CONVINCE someone that what THEIR conscience is telling them is WRONG?


That would be going against the Holy Spirit herself!

I'm not saying there aren't many wonderful verses that can be encouraging to people and uplifting and important for their spiritual growth and well being. My problem is with doctrines that are created that are forced on people, that are used to control and manipulate people for all sorts of evil ends. And like verse 22 of Romans 14 says I'm keeping the things I disagree with to myself! haha

[SeaPriestess]

[Replying to post 23 by Overcomer]

Thank you

[brianbbs67]

What are the rest of your beliefs? Now that we have those, such as the Holy Spirit is feminine. Might help us point you to a church that aligns with your doctrine.

Unless, this is a fishing expedition for your true church?

[SeaPriestess]

[Replying to post 26 by brianbbs67]

Is there a reason you thought I was looking for you to point me to a particular church?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 26 by brianbbs67]

Is there a reason you thought I was looking for you to point me to a particular church?

Umm, thats what the thread seems to be about to me. You want a church that agrees with you. Your doctrine and have not, seemingly found it? Maybe I could help or maybe someone else could....

[SeaPriestess]

[Replying to post 28 by brianbbs67]

I never said I wanted to find a church that agrees with me. I was clear that one probably never will. My question is how to navigate in an environment where you do not agree with certain things. In other words, how to get along with fallen, flawed, annoying Christians? One of my faults, I must admit, and certainly I have struggled applying Jesus' words in this very thing. The thing of those who claim to be Christians and have NO love. They are everywhere, all over the church buildings and church groups. Anyone can play a part, anyone can fit into a certain group or culture just by imitating the others that APPEAR to be all knowledgeable and "look at me, I'm so spiritual, I read the bible cover to cover 34 times etc..." Some people just wanted to be accepted, or recognized or belong to something. Does not mean for one second that their lives and those they touch reflect the fruits of the spirit. Yet, this unloving state of so-called Christians, spread like wild-fire, damages people's spirits. Its like poison and I have seen it do its damage more times than I can count. So, I'm understandably gun shy. The hope I had was dashed. My trust was broken. Damage was done. I'm over it. However, when I go back inside one of those places, so called "churches", I'm extremely uncomfortable. I've known many very real Christians in my life, church going ones. But they are honestly, very few and far between. I want to be with people like that. One's who embody God's love. IN the meantime, I can serve. I have gifts. I'm not looking for real Christians necessarily to confirm that I'm in the right "church". But I'm just trying to learn how to deal with the disappointment I have and probably will encounter again in my search.

[Overcomer]

Have you read any of C.S. Lewis, SeaPriestess? He talks about the challenge of living out the love of Christ in his Mere Christianity. Your most recent post made me think of it.