Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?

[marco]

In modern times we have people telling us that their God told them to kill. We think this absurd. But God told Abraham to murder Isaac. It doesn't matter what the outcome was, we have a precedent for God telling a human to murder another human and not, apparently, because the boy deserved to die, as did the suckling infants in another tale.

Is the command correct just because it is God's?

Was Abraham right in agreeing to commit murder?

[marco]

His character never changes. He , obviously, changed His mind several times. But, He remains the same being in His actions and thought.

Well you're not saying very much. We suspect God doesn't transform into a tadpole or a mountain....or does he? Can he be a burning bush or a Bethlehem baby? That he changes his mind is pretty scary.

Thanks be to Him, He does withhold judgement when we repent. He wouldn't be the Good God, if He punishment after telling us to repent and we did repent.

Such is your guess. This is minimal decency.

God Himself tells us that He does not change (Malachi 3:6) and will always do what He says He will do (Numbers 23:19).

We have just conceded that he changes his mind. That means he does not do what he says he is going to do.

Time does not affect God. He is still the same holy, amazing, kind God He was when He created the world. No matter how uncertain your life looks, you can trust in God’s constant love and faithfulness (Psalm 100:5).

This may be a song but it has nothing to do with reality. God's constant love supervises famines and agonising deaths of children; his love blinks at Holocausts and his ears are deaf to the prayers of starving children but of course he may be feeding sparrows.


The nosensical hymns we sing:

Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for he is kind

are sung in hope and fear rather than observation.

I certainly enjoyed singing

"Stabat mater dolorosa
iuxta crucem lacrimosa,
dum pendebat filius. "

There stood the mournful mother weeping beside the cross while her son hung there.

Lots of fine Gregorian chants and lovely music for masses have come from Bible tales; and beautiful art work has depicted God and various saints and angels. So there is some pleasantness provided we suspend belief. A painting of the vile brute Abraham raising a knife over his son does not conjure up love but horror.


There are NO redeeming features in the horrific command to murder.

[dio9]

[Replying to marco]

The ancients just thought God wanted blood sacrifice. Actually the original Man Adam did not make sacrifices . God just wanted Adam to obey . Originally that is what God wants. Making blood sacrifices is Man's idea not God's .

[marco]

[Replying to marco]

The ancients just thought God wanted blood sacrifice. Actually the original Man Adam did not make sacrifices . God just wanted Adam to obey . Originally that is what God wants. Making blood sacrifices is Man's idea not God's .

So you think the Abraham story is rubbish, a calumny against God? Perhaps Adam might have sacrificed a woolly mammoth, depending on which geological age Eden was built in. I am impressed you know about the deeds of prehistoric man and of what God likes and doesn't like. But I understand that the smell of burnt flesh was pleasing to his nostrils.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 101 by dio9]

The smell of barbecued pork chops is pleasant to my nostrils too. Actually the ancients ate the meat they sacrifices. Think of it as a saying of grace. I am all for roasted lamb but the idea of roasting a first born is completely insane.
Roasted sacrifices of bulls and lambs were eaten by the congregations .
Paul warned the new Christians converted from Pagan worship not to eat food sacrificed to idols. Because they ate the sacrifices in a sacred feast.

[marco]

[Replying to post 101 by dio9]

The smell of barbecued pork chops is pleasant to my nostrils too. Actually the ancients ate the meat they sacrifices. Think of it as a saying of grace. I am all for roasted lamb but the idea of roasting a first born is completely insane.
Roasted sacrifices of bulls and lambs were eaten by the congregations .
Paul warned the new Christians converted from Pagan worship not to eat food sacrificed to idols. Because they ate the sacrifices in a sacred feast.

Yes, there were rules around what one did with sacrificed meat and today these rules have the odour of nonsense to our nostrils. The Aztecs ripped the beating heart from their victims before decapitation. There is no difference between this brutality and the intentions of Abraham and the command he was supposedly given. It is chilling that some modern minds can construe love and trust and honourable obedience into it all. But then God so loved the world that he presented his son to be tortured and crucified.

[dio9]

[Replying to marco]

Yes the Aztecs had a terribly savage sacrificial practice. More savage than the Canaanite's which Abraham's resembles. The idea the Aztecs and Canaanites had was the wrong idea about what God wants. God doesn't want sacrifice.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 101 by dio9]

The smell of barbecued pork chops is pleasant to my nostrils too. Actually the ancients ate the meat they sacrifices. Think of it as a saying of grace. I am all for roasted lamb but the idea of roasting a first born is completely insane.
Roasted sacrifices of bulls and lambs were eaten by the congregations .
Paul warned the new Christians converted from Pagan worship not to eat food sacrificed to idols. Because they ate the sacrifices in a sacred feast.

You are partly correct regarding the ancients. Some sacrifices were eaten and some were not. It depends on the purpose of the sacrifice. With regard to Paul's advise regarding eating the meat offered to idols, you are incorrect. He did not think one should take part in the sacred feasts. However, whether one ate the meat are not is dependent on whether others would presume that they were taking part in the feast, if they ate some of it, or someone was offended by them eating it. It is about appearances and offence, not the fact that it was offered to an idol.

God doesn't want sacrifice.

Presuming you are talking about Adonai and not some other deity, that is not quite right. Adonai does not want improper sacrifice. If the sacrifice does not act as a true act of devotion that effects a change in one's behavior, then that sacrifice is of no value to Adonai. The purpose of a sacrifice is to reinforce proper behavior.

[dio9]

[Replying to bluethread]

come on there hasn't been sacrifice since the Temple fell. Nobody sacrifices bulls lambs or pigeons anymore.

[marco]

[Replying to bluethread]

come on there hasn't been sacrifice since the Temple fell. Nobody sacrifices bulls lambs or pigeons anymore.

Well in the civilised world, no; and that is because we have put aside old superstitions. Much of the argument against biblical ways is that they do not apply in a civilised world.
So we see a command by a deity that requires a father to kill a son as wicked.

[Monta]

[Replying to bluethread]

come on there hasn't been sacrifice since the Temple fell. Nobody sacrifices bulls lambs or pigeons anymore.

Well in the civilised world, no; and that is because we have put aside old superstitions. Much of the argument against biblical ways is that they do not apply in a civilised world.
So we see a command by a deity that requires a father to kill a son as wicked.

Today Jews sacrifice chickens; don't now the reason for change.

There was no command of deity to kill a son; please provide reference if you think there's any.
Scripture or some valid theology have answers to that most important subject.