Christ in the OT

[brianbbs67]

Who is he and who is Lord? Proverbs 8:31-36

I post this in response to another topic and then I reread this.

31-36

"Rejoicing in His inhabited world, finding delight with mankind.
Now, sons, listen to me; Happy are they who keep my ways.
Heed discipline and become wise; Do not spurn it.
Happy is the man who listens to me, Coming early to my gates each day,
Waiting outside my doors.
For he who finds me finds life.
And obtains favor from the Lord.
But he who misses me destroys himself;
All who hate me love death."

Does this not refer to "before Abraham , I am" ??

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 6 by William]

Couldn't then this person be anyone?

[brianbbs67]

Who is he and who is Lord? Proverbs 8:31-36

I post this in response to another topic and then I reread this.

31-36

"Rejoicing in His inhabited world, finding delight with mankind.
Now, sons, listen to me; Happy are they who keep my ways.
Heed discipline and become wise; Do not spurn it.
Happy is the man who listens to me, Coming early to my gates each day,
Waiting outside my doors.
For he who finds me finds life.
And obtains favor from the Lord.
But he who misses me destroys himself;
All who hate me love death."

Does this not refer to "before Abraham , I am" ??

If you read this proverb in context, the answer to, "who is he?", is wisdom. The proper question of course would be, "who is she?" given that the author states this:

"8:1 Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?

2 At the highest point along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3 beside the gate leading into the city, at the entrance, she cries aloud:"

The rest of the proverb is of course wisdom speaking. There is no reference at all to Jesus if that is your implication.

Yes that is correct. But why does the gender change? And who is this wisdom we here so often about in the OT? YHWH says pray first for wisdom. Was wisdom made carnate?

[Tcg]

Who is he and who is Lord? Proverbs 8:31-36

I post this in response to another topic and then I reread this.

31-36

"Rejoicing in His inhabited world, finding delight with mankind.
Now, sons, listen to me; Happy are they who keep my ways.
Heed discipline and become wise; Do not spurn it.
Happy is the man who listens to me, Coming early to my gates each day,
Waiting outside my doors.
For he who finds me finds life.
And obtains favor from the Lord.
But he who misses me destroys himself;
All who hate me love death."

Does this not refer to "before Abraham , I am" ??

If you read this proverb in context, the answer to, "who is he?", is wisdom. The proper question of course would be, "who is she?" given that the author states this:

"8:1 Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?

2 At the highest point along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3 beside the gate leading into the city, at the entrance, she cries aloud:"

The rest of the proverb is of course wisdom speaking. There is no reference at all to Jesus if that is your implication.

Yes that is correct. But why does the gender change?

I have no idea.

And who is this wisdom we here so often about in the OT?

Wisdom is a thing, not a person.

YHWH says pray first for wisdom. Was wisdom made carnate?

If it is your opinion that wisdom was made carnate, it is up to you to support that claim.

[tam]

[Replying to post 5 by tam]
Peace to you, also.

I view it as you do. Goes along with "the Lord said to my lord". Just didn't notice it till last night.

Yes, I love when that happens; when my Lord opens up and/or explains something in the scriptures that I had not seen or understood before He showed it to me. Especially when it is about Him.



Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Tcg]

Yes, I love when that happens; when my Lord opens up and/or explains something in the scriptures that I had not seen or understood before He showed it to me. Especially when it is about Him.

It would be even more impressive if the text he "opens up and/or explains" was actually about him. Given that it isn't, there is nothing to be impressed about other than the ability of some folks to read into the text that which absolutely isn't there.

[101G]

Yes, I love when that happens; when my Lord opens up and/or explains something in the scriptures that I had not seen or understood before He showed it to me. Especially when it is about Him.

It would be even more impressive if the text he "opens up and/or explains" was actually about him. Given that it isn't, there is nothing to be impressed about other than the ability of some folks to read into the text that which absolutely isn't there.

Don't mean to get into your conversation, but the bible do make it clear as to who the Lord Jesus is in the OT. example,
1 Corinthians 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ".

here clearly, the apostle puts Christ in the OT. so let's check and see who the ROCK is in the OT.

scripture, Deuteronomy 32:1 "Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Deuteronomy 32:2 "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Deuteronomy 32:3 "Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he".


this is clear as a bell. our God is the Rock = JESUS, our God.

read those verses again, and carefully.

Peace in Christ Yeshua, Jesus

[tam]

Peace to you tcg,

Yes, I love when that happens; when my Lord opens up and/or explains something in the scriptures that I had not seen or understood before He showed it to me. Especially when it is about Him.

It would be even more impressive if the text he "opens up and/or explains" was actually about him. Given that it isn't, there is nothing to be impressed about other than the ability of some folks to read into the text that which absolutely isn't there.

Surely you do not think that just because you do not see Him in something, no one does?


If everyone saw everything about Him in the OT, on their own and just by reading it, then why would He have needed to open up the scriptures to even His own disciples?



[Jesus] said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.� Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. Luke 24:45


They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" Luke 24:32





I find the example that brian posted in the OP to be one of the most obvious examples of Wisdom being Christ, but here are a couple of others:

For example:

Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,


He is the One calling out to mankind, for us to come to Him, to listen to Him, to eat and drink from Him. And He is the One calling and leading His sheep into the city (that is the city of New Jerusalem - Rev 21:2).

And from verse 15:


By me kings reign
and rulers issue decrees that are just;


It is again by Christ that kings reign:

And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. Rev 2:26

To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Rev 3:21

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Rev 20:6

They sang a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on earth." Rev 5:9, 10



"Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28


if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 2Timothy 2:12



I will stop there though.


May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to get a sense of these things, and also to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride SAY, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"


(and that is another example of Christ calling out to mankind)




Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Tcg]

Peace to you tcg,

Yes, I love when that happens; when my Lord opens up and/or explains something in the scriptures that I had not seen or understood before He showed it to me. Especially when it is about Him.

It would be even more impressive if the text he "opens up and/or explains" was actually about him. Given that it isn't, there is nothing to be impressed about other than the ability of some folks to read into the text that which absolutely isn't there.

Surely you do not think that just because you do not see Him in something, no one does?

That an odd response. I didn't question whether or not people "see him in something".

People see Jesus in toast, tacos, cows. Sure their going to see him in the OT. Given that they expect to see him there before they even look, it is no surprise they do.

The fact that they "see him" in the OT doesn't mean he's there. The same of course is true of toast, tacos, and cows.

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by brianbbs67]

For me the script refers to the individual who is acquainted with the GOD to the extent that the script ascribes.

People who miss that, are not acquainted.

Couldn't then this person be anyone?

Certainly anyone who is acquainted with the GOD to the extent that the script ascribes.

[bluethread]

here clearly, the apostle puts Christ in the OT. so let's check and see who the ROCK is in the OT.

Not to undermine your argument, but it is important to be accurate. "(T)hat spiritual Rock that followed them" is not stated in HaTorah, but is Talmudic commentary regarding the two times in HaTorah when water came out of a rock at Horeb and Kadesh. According to the Talmud those were not two rocks, but one rock that followed them. Paul is taking this Talmudic teaching and applying it to Yeshua.