Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?

[marco]

In modern times we have people telling us that their God told them to kill. We think this absurd. But God told Abraham to murder Isaac. It doesn't matter what the outcome was, we have a precedent for God telling a human to murder another human and not, apparently, because the boy deserved to die, as did the suckling infants in another tale.

Is the command correct just because it is God's?

Was Abraham right in agreeing to commit murder?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 73 by marco]

The world of course holds no consensus. Women are beheaded, for religious reasons, in some countries. In fact it seems only when we are dealing with religion that we need to ask the obvious: Is the arbitrary killing of a child wrong?

You just walked into the abortion debate right there. At least whatever religion you are imagining is still debating whether the arbitrary killing of a child is wrong.

[marco]

[Replying to post 73 by marco]

The world of course holds no consensus. Women are beheaded, for religious reasons, in some countries. In fact it seems only when we are dealing with religion that we need to ask the obvious: Is the arbitrary killing of a child wrong?

You just walked into the abortion debate right there. At least whatever religion you are imagining is still debating whether the arbitrary killing of a child is wrong.

It is not the same debate; abortion concerns the definition of a human person or when a person is or is not a person. Isaac was well out of Sarah's womb when God delivered his bombshell.

[marco]

I admit stretching things a bit to see responses. I do think it was some kind of test or game for some unknown reason. Maybe Abraham didn't believe God would make him actually do it. Who knows? It is an odd part of the story.

Theologians with well-ironed degrees would easily find meaning and justification. It is the nature of man to find excuses. Out of simple words came Trinity and Transubstantiation. Here we have the command: murder your son! Abraham goes about complying. Puzzle: how to justify evil when God is the instigator.

For my part this story shows the kind of God Yahweh's creators wanted to make: not a merciful loving soft touch but a being who can ask absolutely anything. To me this is exactly how Allah has been made. Yahweh's brutal flaws were mitigated by Christ's constant use of the metaphor "Father".

[brianbbs67]

I admit stretching things a bit to see responses. I do think it was some kind of test or game for some unknown reason. Maybe Abraham didn't believe God would make him actually do it. Who knows? It is an odd part of the story.

Theologians with well-ironed degrees would easily find meaning and justification. It is the nature of man to find excuses. Out of simple words came Trinity and Transubstantiation. Here we have the command: murder your son! Abraham goes about complying. Puzzle: how to justify evil when God is the instigator.

For my part this story shows the kind of God Yahweh's creators wanted to make: not a merciful loving soft touch but a being who can ask absolutely anything. To me this is exactly how Allah has been made. Yahweh's brutal flaws were mitigated by Christ's constant use of the metaphor "Father".

God knows evil too. "God repented from the evil He was about to do" because the king and people repented. So did the Lord. Just because you prefer to do good , does not mean you do not know how to do otherwise. It means you are not looking to do it as a first response.

[Tcg]

For my part this story shows the kind of God Yahweh's creators wanted to make: not a merciful loving soft touch but a being who can ask absolutely anything.

Exactly. It's like that joke about bringing a knife to a gun fight. No one wants to bring a soft touch god to a god fight.

[marco]

God knows evil too. "God repented from the evil He was about to do" because the king and people repented. So did the Lord. Just because you prefer to do good , does not mean you do not know how to do otherwise. It means you are not looking to do it as a first response.

Terrifyingly consistent! I can cope with baby Jesus meek and mild, with the Father hurting at man's ingratitude and his mercy being from generation to generation.... but a God who acts as a Samaritan one day and as a thug the next is the stuff of nightmares.

And yet this is exactly the picture we get from the tale of Abraham and Isaac.

[dio9]

[Replying to marco]

The sacrifice of Isaac is about ending the practice of Child sacrifice. Obviously Abraham was influenced by that idea . The angel of God stopping Abraham's hand clearly shows the True God opposes that practice. In other words God is actually saying , don't sacrifice your children, here.

[Tcg]

[Replying to marco]

The sacrifice of Isaac is about ending the practice of Child sacrifice. Obviously Abraham was influenced by that idea . The angel of God stopping Abraham's hand clearly shows the True God opposes that practice. In other words God is actually saying , don't sacrifice your children, here.

This doesn't follow from the text at all. God blessed Abraham for his willingness to murder Isaac. Nowhere in text is Abraham admonished for his willingness to commit this murder.

[marco]

[Replying to marco]

The sacrifice of Isaac is about ending the practice of Child sacrifice. Obviously Abraham was influenced by that idea . The angel of God stopping Abraham's hand clearly shows the True God opposes that practice. In other words God is actually saying , don't sacrifice your children, here.

And when Julius Caesar cut off the right hands of rebellious Gauls this was to demonstrate the Pax Romana - the Roman peace. It is a curious way to demonstrate the simple injunction: Don't kill - by telling someone to do just that. I think that very few reading the story would see it as anything other than a terrifying dispaly that God can ask what he wants.

[myth-one.com]

In modern times we have people telling us that their God told them to kill. We think this absurd. But God told Abraham to murder Isaac. It doesn't matter what the outcome was, we have a precedent for God telling a human to murder another human and not, apparently, because the boy deserved to die, as did the suckling infants in another tale.

Is the command correct just because it is God's?

Was Abraham right in agreeing to commit murder?

Abraham, God, and probably even Isaac absolutely knew that Isaac would not be harmed that day!

And so did I after reading the story in the Bible.

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. (Genesis 22:1-2)

Abraham did not question God, but arose the next morning and set off to Moriah. When they reached the place God showed him, he instructed the two men who accompanied them:

And Abraham said to his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. (Genesis 22:5)

On the way up the mountain, Isaac asks his father:

Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. (Genesis 22:7-8)

Abraham and Isaac reach the top, build an altar, lay the wood, and Abraham binds Isaac and lays him on the wood on the altar. Then:

And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. (Genesis 22:10-13)

Abraham knew God would not allow Isaac to be killed! Abraham said they would go up the mount, worship, and return. And that is exactly what they did.

Isaac would return with him because God promised Abraham that He would make an everlasting covenant with his son Isaac and Isaac's seed!

This is a story of incredible faith! Abraham had faith that God would keep His promise.

Abraham was one hundred years old and his wife Sarah was ninety when God said:

Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (Genesis 17:19)

Now, here was Isaac on the altar. If he were killed, the above promise could not be fulfilled. God could not establish his covenant with Isaac and his seed if Isaac was dead!

It was impossible that the lad Isaac would die before establishing his seed.

God made a promise to Abraham about Isaac and God had to fulfill that promise because God cannot lie:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Abraham went through the motions and proved his faith in God to fulfill the promise regarding Isaac and his seed!

Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?

God never ordered Abraham to kill Isaac -- He commanded Abraham to "offer him."