For Christians, who is the "seal of the prophets"?

[Elijah John]

The phrase "seal of the prophets" is one borrowed from Islam. It refers to Mohammed as the final and most authoritative prophet.

It can be argued that Christians, (at the very least), claim that Jesus is the final and most authoritative prophet. But more than a prophet, the "Son of God" and the "Word of God".

But many, if not most Christians today seem to give the teachings of Paul more weight than the teachings of Jesus.

Much of what we know of today as traditional, normative orthodox (small "o") Christianity today is really based upon Paul's vision, his version of Christianity.

For debate, who really has the final word, or who should have the final word on Christianity? Jesus or Paul?

Who is the "seal" of Christianity? After all, Jesus is considered the "Son of God", and the "Word of God" by many, if not most Christians today.

Yet after the Gospel accounts of Jesus life, teachings and ministry, we have the writings of Paul, as if to say "Paul is the final word". Where Paul diverges from Jesus, the Church most often favors Paul.

Consider the emphasis of their comparative teachings. Jesus preached repentance and the expansive mercy of the Father (the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, the Parables, etc.). By contrast, Paul emphasized and preached the "atoning death and resurrection" of Jesus.

Also for debate, if Jesus is the "Son of God" and the "Word of God", greater than the Prophets, in effect the true "seal of the Prophets", do we really need Paul to add to, or interpret Jesus for us? If so, why?

[bjs]

[Replying to Elijah John]

There is a reason the “seal of the prophets� is not a phrase in Christianity.

The closest we have to a “seal� is the Holy Spirit. Traditional orthodox (small “o�) Christianity holds that the Spirit guided the selection the biblical text, and all the books are equally inspired. As such, we do not put Paul’s epistles above the gospels, nor the other way around.

We base our beliefs on the teachings of the Apostles, and neither Paul nor Mark have the final word. Together they lead us to the God beyond the sacred page.

[ttruscott]

Most Christians I dare say would claim your questions are based upon a false premise that Paul contradicts Jesus, rather than elucidates His death.

[Elijah John]

Most Christians I dare say would claim your questions are based upon a false premise that Paul contradicts Jesus, rather than elucidates His death.

Why would the all-wise, all-knowing omnipotent Jesus need Paul to elucidate or interpret Jesus death?

Why didn't Jesus interpret his own death and resurrection? Something does not add up here.

Plus, Paul does indeed contradict Jesus in several important ways. Posts and posts here on this site have demonstrated this, one quite recently by Clownboat, I believe.

To sum it up (as I see it any way) Paul emphasized Jesus death and resurrection as an "atonement". Jesus emphasized repentance and the Father's expansive mercy, and eagerness to forgive. An eager, forgiving Father does not need to be bought with blood.

A forgiving Father was Jesus most important metaphor, that is the way he saw God, that is what he preached. Paul's? The metaphorical, sacrificial "lamb of God".

Jesus preached God, Paul preached Jesus.

Quite a difference.

[Tcg]

For debate, who really has the final word, or who should have the final word on Christianity? Jesus or Paul?

This is a very interesting question, though perhaps not complete. What about James, Peter, the author of the book of Hebrews, John of Patmos? James presents some very disturbing views on faith and works, at least for those who teach "faith only". John of Patmos presents a view of Jesus that is quite nightmarish compared to the Jesus of the Gospels, give or take a view verses that hinted at the wrathfulness of Jesus to be presented in Revelation.

It's a difficult question to answer given all these different voices. Based on the volume of his work, Paul is a valid candidate to consider except for the fact that he seems to know little or perhaps nothing of Jesus' life on earth.

If this question had been answered properly many years ago, the N.T. would be a much shorter book. If the author of Hebrews got the nod, it'd be that single book. Given that it wasn't, we have a hodgepodge of conflicting voices that create contradictions that will never be resolved as long as the N.T. remains it it's current compilation.

[ttruscott]

Most Christians I dare say would claim your questions are based upon a false premise that Paul contradicts Jesus, rather than elucidates His death.

Why would the all-wise, all-knowing omnipotent Jesus need Paul to elucidate or interpret Jesus death?

For the same reason HE used Moses to elucidate the law, David to elucidate the emotional side of law, sin and faith, and Jeremiah to elucidate sorrow!

[Elijah John]

For debate, who really has the final word, or who should have the final word on Christianity? Jesus or Paul?

This is a very interesting question, though perhaps not complete. What about James, Peter, the author of the book of Hebrews, John of Patmos? James presents some very disturbing views on faith and works, at least for those who teach "faith only". John of Patmos presents a view of Jesus that is quite nightmarish compared to the Jesus of the Gospels, give or take a view verses that hinted at the wrathfulness of Jesus to be presented in Revelation.

It's a difficult question to answer given all these different voices. Based on the volume of his work, Paul is a valid candidate to consider except for the fact that he seems to know little or perhaps nothing of Jesus' life on earth.

If this question had been answered properly many years ago, the N.T. would be a much shorter book. If the author of Hebrews got the nod, it'd be that single book. Given that it wasn't, we have a hodgepodge of conflicting voices that create contradictions that will never be resolved as long as the N.T. remains it it's current compilation.

Interesting answer. I would say that no one had a bigger influence on Christianity outside of Jesus than did Paul, with the exception perhaps of John. The other voices, the other epistle authors not so much. And at this point, I have to confess my ignorance. Is the Gospel author known as "John" the same person as "John of Patmos" otherwise known as "John the Revelator"?

Peter is said to be the first Pope, by the RCC. But I always found that a bit odd, seeing that Paul has far more influence in shaping what has become normative Christianity and it's doctrine.

And there is really no good way to tabulate this, but it really seems that modern Trinitarian Christians quote Paul as much, or more often than they do Jesus himself.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Elijah John]

There is a reason the “seal of the prophets� is not a phrase in Christianity.

The closest we have to a “seal� is the Holy Spirit. Traditional orthodox (small “o�) Christianity holds that the Spirit guided the selection the biblical text, and all the books are equally inspired. As such, we do not put Paul’s epistles above the gospels, nor the other way around.

We base our beliefs on the teachings of the Apostles, and neither Paul nor Mark have the final word. Together they lead us to the God beyond the sacred page.

Good summation.

But some posters prefer to see things differently.

They seem to me to go for doubting and dividing, and to be somewhat driven to finding shadows around many corners.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 4 by Elijah John]

Why didn't Jesus interpret his own death and resurrection? Something does not add up here.

He did.

But rather than adding it you subtract it.

[Tcg]

Interesting answer. I would say that no one had a bigger influence on Christianity outside of Jesus than did Paul, with the exception perhaps of John.

I suppose it is a difficult call, but it seems to me that in many cases, Paul has had a greater influence than Jesus. I wonder though if these other authors I've mentioned get thrown in with Paul when this influence is considered.

I think Paul and the authors of the other epistles are addressed more often than Jesus when it comes to formal doctrinal statements. That is my memory of the many doctrinal statements I've read. I admit that my memory may not be accurate and that I've only read a select few given the hundreds if not thousands that exist.

The other voices, the other epistle authors not so much. And at this point, I have to confess my ignorance. Is the Gospel author known as "John" the same person as "John of Patmos" otherwise known as "John the Revelator"?

Tradition states that they are. A closer examination reveals some problems with that view. The vocabulary used in Revelation is markedly different than that of the other books attributed to John. Revelation was written so late, that many question if the author of the other works of John would still be alive when Revelation was written.

Peter is said to be the first Pope, by the RCC. But I always found that a bit odd, seeing that Paul has far more influence in shaping what has become normative Christianity and it's doctrine.

I've never found that argument to be convincing. There is certainly nothing in the Bible itself that refers to the concept of a pope of any kind.

And there is really no good way to tabulate this, but it really seems that modern Trinitarian Christians quote Paul as much, or more often than they do Jesus himself.

Agreed, almost to the exclusion of Jesus.