8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.
If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.
How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?
Revelation 2:8
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Wootah
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Revelation 2:8
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."Re: Revelation 2:8
Post #91[Replying to post 88 by brianbbs67]
thanks for the reply, forgive me if you are confused. let me make it clear.
in Revelation 1:1 an angel was sent to John, the question is "Who sent the angel"
in Revelation 22:6 the angel tells us who sent him by "TITLE" the Lord God of the holy prophets.
so I asked, "who is the Lord God of the Holy Prophets". is it the one called the Father, or the Son JESUS.
this will answer the Isaiah 9:6 scripture at the same time as to who is the TRUE and LIVING GOD, the EVERLASTING FATHER.
so who sent his angel to John as some say the Father, or the Lord JESUS?
thanks for the reply, forgive me if you are confused. let me make it clear.
in Revelation 1:1 an angel was sent to John, the question is "Who sent the angel"
in Revelation 22:6 the angel tells us who sent him by "TITLE" the Lord God of the holy prophets.
so I asked, "who is the Lord God of the Holy Prophets". is it the one called the Father, or the Son JESUS.
this will answer the Isaiah 9:6 scripture at the same time as to who is the TRUE and LIVING GOD, the EVERLASTING FATHER.
so who sent his angel to John as some say the Father, or the Lord JESUS?
Post #92
apparently this simple question must not be plain enough, so I'll make it very simple. meaning I'll answer the question.
who sent the angel? the angel said "the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done"
the angel is clear, "the Lord God of the Holy Prophets, which are of the OT.
but the bible gives us the answer as to who sent him, the angle. the answer is found in Revelation 22:16, read it for yourself.
who sent the angel? the angel said "the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done"
the angel is clear, "the Lord God of the Holy Prophets, which are of the OT.
but the bible gives us the answer as to who sent him, the angle. the answer is found in Revelation 22:16, read it for yourself.
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brianbbs67
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Post #93
[Replying to post 92 by 101G]
That doesn't prove anything like you want it to prove. God sent His angels. One of which is Christ. Read v7 and then 8 and see this. 7 is in red in the NKJ, indicating Christ. Then John bows to worship and is told not to do this as he is a fellow servant. The order of these must mean something....
That doesn't prove anything like you want it to prove. God sent His angels. One of which is Christ. Read v7 and then 8 and see this. 7 is in red in the NKJ, indicating Christ. Then John bows to worship and is told not to do this as he is a fellow servant. The order of these must mean something....
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brianbbs67
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Post #94
And who is Jesus' messenger in this book? John.....(22:16 question )brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 92 by 101G]
That doesn't prove anything like you want it to prove. God sent His angels. One of which is Christ. Read v7 and then 8 and see this. 7 is in red in the NKJ, indicating Christ. Then John bows to worship and is told not to do this as he is a fellow servant. The order of these must mean something....
Post #95
[Replying to post 93 by brianbbs67]
can't accept the truth? well no need to read verse 7 nor 8. in the letters to the 7 churches, it is the Lord Jesus addressing the churches... right. well look at how all the letters end, they all end this way, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".
was it not the Lord Jesus the Lord God of the holy prophets addressing each church? yes, here again is proof of the Lord Jesus as God. the only TRUE GOD, the Holy Spirit. here in chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation, both Son and Father is eliminated, only the Spirit is Speaking.
read those 7 letter to the churches in chapter 2 and 3 again and see who is really speaking to the churches.
can't accept the truth? well no need to read verse 7 nor 8. in the letters to the 7 churches, it is the Lord Jesus addressing the churches... right. well look at how all the letters end, they all end this way, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".
was it not the Lord Jesus the Lord God of the holy prophets addressing each church? yes, here again is proof of the Lord Jesus as God. the only TRUE GOD, the Holy Spirit. here in chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation, both Son and Father is eliminated, only the Spirit is Speaking.
read those 7 letter to the churches in chapter 2 and 3 again and see who is really speaking to the churches.
Post #96
[Replying to post 93 by brianbbs67]
see I don't have to prove anything, it's in the bible.
but I like the Jehovah witness new world translation on this Revelation 1:1 question.
it states that "Jehovah", the one whom many calls YHWH sent his angel. you can find this text at https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... lation/22/
they must be in shock when they read Revelation 22:16. my God that's a big blunder in bible translation.
see I don't have to prove anything, it's in the bible.
but I like the Jehovah witness new world translation on this Revelation 1:1 question.
it states that "Jehovah", the one whom many calls YHWH sent his angel. you can find this text at https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... lation/22/
they must be in shock when they read Revelation 22:16. my God that's a big blunder in bible translation.
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brianbbs67
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Post #97
I have no trouble with the truth. It is what I seek. Yeshau said he would send a comforter, which we see as the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of God, who passed over the waters of the earth way back in Genesis. The Spirit is not Christ.101G wrote: [Replying to post 93 by brianbbs67]
can't accept the truth? well no need to read verse 7 nor 8. in the letters to the 7 churches, it is the Lord Jesus addressing the churches... right. well look at how all the letters end, they all end this way, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".
was it not the Lord Jesus the Lord God of the holy prophets addressing each church? yes, here again is proof of the Lord Jesus as God. the only TRUE GOD, the Holy Spirit. here in chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation, both Son and Father is eliminated, only the Spirit is Speaking.
read those 7 letter to the churches in chapter 2 and 3 again and see who is really speaking to the churches.
Your truth may vary.
As to the letters, interesting you don't say Epistles. But, when it is obvious the term angel means messenger, you still use angel. These letters were dispatched to a messenger to deliver across the mediterrain to the new churches. Like a monthly newsletter. I guess some could be divine. I don't argue that. I don't argue that Christ spoke to disciples.
Even if you want to posit that Christ is the messenger used everytime, that is shone false by rev.22 and of course, does not mean he is God. Could he be, yes, anything is possible, but Christ , himself, and God seem to refute this.
If you have no need to read, you must be great indeed. I assume no such high position and took your verses seriously and re read them and others related just to see if you had delivered something new to me.
As Soloman's son said, "there is nothing new under the sun"
Re: Revelation 2:8
Post #98We read in Revelation that all majesty and power has been given to the Lamb.dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 66 by Monta]
The first and last to die for our sins makes good sense to me. But don't think it says Jesus is God. more it says Jesus was the Lamb of God. The Gospels tell us Jesus was the Lamb of God.
Do you believe God needed such a sacrifice to appease his sense of justice offended?
All means all.
The spiritual is of spiritual dimension and does not have to fit our natural minds according to our earthly laws.
Post #99
[Replying to post 97 by brianbbs67]
First thanks for the response,
second, let's take a closer look at your statement you made, "Yeshau said he would send a comforter, which we see as the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of God, who passed over the waters of the earth way back in Genesis. The Spirit is not Christ".
two things,
#1. the Spirit of God is God. scripture, John 4:24a "God is a Spirit". first question to you, are you saying that God, who is Spirit have a Spirit? I don't believe so. the key word to understand here is "of". according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines, "of" translates the genitive case of nouns, with various shades of meaning. Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned here, which need careful distinction. so when one say the Spirit of God, that's God himself, for God is a Spirit.
#2. the Spirit is JESUS. supportive scripture, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".
The bible is clear, the Lord Jesus said in verse 18 "I WILL COME TO YOU".
and he did in "another" form his natural form, Spirit". see the word "Another" in verse 16, it's the Greek word, G243 Allos and it expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort.
to make it short for you, it's the SAME PERSON in another Form.
Judas brought this point out when our Lord said, John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him".
John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"
this is a GREAT question asked. listen to what the our Lord said, John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him".
STOP and THINK for a moment. if the Comforter is going to be send from the FATHER why would the FATHER come and abode or dwell in us when the Spirit is coming. the Lord Jesus just told us something that should rock the entire religious world. what the Lord Jesus just said is that the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, is the Father and the Son in a different, or "ANOTHER" form. meaning the Holy Spirit is the Son in flesh, and the Father without flesh.
How do we know this? remember our Lord said that he would pray for another comforter, and then said, "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you. and in verse 23 he said this. "and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him"
WE, OUR, but only the Holy Spirit came .... Right? ..... Right. so what is our Lord telling us? the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. remember the word "ANOTHER. the vine dictionary states, G243 allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort.
ANOTHER of the SAME "SORT" is the same person in a different form.
now, can we back this up? yes, Judas asked how he would manifest himself. the answer, Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance".
THIS IS HOW HE MANIFESTED HIMSELF. in the Spiritual Gifts, that's why he is called the comforter.
but also he's called the advocate. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"
this word here "advocate" look up what it means.... you want be surprised.
First thanks for the response,
second, let's take a closer look at your statement you made, "Yeshau said he would send a comforter, which we see as the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of God, who passed over the waters of the earth way back in Genesis. The Spirit is not Christ".
two things,
#1. the Spirit of God is God. scripture, John 4:24a "God is a Spirit". first question to you, are you saying that God, who is Spirit have a Spirit? I don't believe so. the key word to understand here is "of". according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines, "of" translates the genitive case of nouns, with various shades of meaning. Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned here, which need careful distinction. so when one say the Spirit of God, that's God himself, for God is a Spirit.
#2. the Spirit is JESUS. supportive scripture, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".
The bible is clear, the Lord Jesus said in verse 18 "I WILL COME TO YOU".
and he did in "another" form his natural form, Spirit". see the word "Another" in verse 16, it's the Greek word, G243 Allos and it expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort.
to make it short for you, it's the SAME PERSON in another Form.
Judas brought this point out when our Lord said, John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him".
John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"
this is a GREAT question asked. listen to what the our Lord said, John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him".
STOP and THINK for a moment. if the Comforter is going to be send from the FATHER why would the FATHER come and abode or dwell in us when the Spirit is coming. the Lord Jesus just told us something that should rock the entire religious world. what the Lord Jesus just said is that the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, is the Father and the Son in a different, or "ANOTHER" form. meaning the Holy Spirit is the Son in flesh, and the Father without flesh.
How do we know this? remember our Lord said that he would pray for another comforter, and then said, "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you. and in verse 23 he said this. "and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him"
WE, OUR, but only the Holy Spirit came .... Right? ..... Right. so what is our Lord telling us? the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. remember the word "ANOTHER. the vine dictionary states, G243 allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort.
ANOTHER of the SAME "SORT" is the same person in a different form.
now, can we back this up? yes, Judas asked how he would manifest himself. the answer, Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance".
THIS IS HOW HE MANIFESTED HIMSELF. in the Spiritual Gifts, that's why he is called the comforter.
but also he's called the advocate. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"
this word here "advocate" look up what it means.... you want be surprised.
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onewithhim
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Re: Revelation 2:8
Post #100Of course "all" power is relative when keeping God in the picture. God gave Jesus "all" power, but of course it would EXCLUDE God Himself. It's as Paul brought out to the Corinthians.Monta wrote:We read in Revelation that all majesty and power has been given to the Lamb.dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 66 by Monta]
The first and last to die for our sins makes good sense to me. But don't think it says Jesus is God. more it says Jesus was the Lamb of God. The Gospels tell us Jesus was the Lamb of God.
Do you believe God needed such a sacrifice to appease his sense of justice offended?
All means all.
The spiritual is of spiritual dimension and does not have to fit our natural minds according to our earthly laws.
"...When He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is EXCEPTED who put all things in subjection to him [Christ]. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all." (I Corinthians 15:27,28, NASB)
I think you can see here that it is always understood that GOD is always the One who is supreme. When Jesus is given authority, it is always to be understood that his Father, God, will never have His own authority reduced. After the Millennial Reign, Jesus will hand over the governing to his Father (verse 24).
