Who is responsible?

[Peds nurse]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

The one and only purpose for Creation, is to provide us with the free will to make moral choices. The choices are ours, not God's, because God shared that free will with us, to exercise in this universe, in this life. This is a test.

... God has a free will to choose between good and evil? For some reason that doesn't sound right to me.

Why? Every holy person is holy by their free will and a free will is free for every option applicable. This only means that though holy persons can indeed choose evil, they never will because they have seen / experienced for themselves the consequences of choosing evil and out of a commitment to loving righteousness will never bring such suffering into their world again.

[ttruscott]

Thus proving that your god is also not omniscient. This doesn't sound like much of a god to begin with.

It is better to tread softly with this topic since the Church has accepted the pagan Greek wisdom definition of omniscience as knowing all there is to know about everything from eternity past to eternity future. If that sounds much more godly I suggest you have fallen under the spell of false, pagan, religion.

I know this definition is a blasphemy because it says that GOD knew before HE created them those who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not the action of a GOD who loves, is righteous and just! It is written that HE does everything for HIS pleasure and also that HE takes no pleasure in the death / damnation of anyone and neither does HE want anyone to be lost YET HE CREATED THEM KNOWING THEY WOULD END IN HELL!???

How orthodoxy lives with their cognitive dissonance here is beyond me. It is also written that HE knows all about what HE has created which implies that if He did not create something, HE does not know it...which also implies that if HE does not create the results of our true free will decisions, then HE does not know those results until we choose them!

[ttruscott]

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Peds nurse]

The one and only purpose for Creation, is to provide us with the free will to make moral choices. The choices are ours, not God's, because God shared that free will with us, to exercise in this universe, in this life. This is a test.

... God has a free will to choose between good and evil? For some reason that doesn't sound right to me.

Why? Every holy person is holy by their free will and a free will is free for every option applicable. This only means that though holy persons can indeed choose evil, they never will because they have seen / experienced for themselves the consequences of choosing evil and out of a commitment to loving righteousness will never bring such suffering into their world again.

I admit I don't really have much of an argument to support my position. I look at it like someone might look at having the free will to press their hand to a hot stove. They may have the choice, but it isn't like they're going to have to think about it. Some people contemplate suicide on a regular basis while others never contemplate it. It simply never enters into their mind. How often to most people think about autonomous functions of the body? Most never do, and I think it's like that with God. Because of this, there really isn't a choice at all. I think this is what Paul is talking about when he says, "not by will or effort". He isn't suggesting that we don't have free will, he's just pointing out that God's will cannot be thwarted. God simply provides us with the easy way, and the hard way.

I think your theology would say that we're here because we chose the hard way, and within that hard way, there is a way back, or the way to destruction. Those who choose the way to destruction really can't help themselves. They just see that as a no-brainer, and those who choose the way back do so as well when they've gotten to a point where they can't stand to see the pain and suffering they inflict on others or the pain and suffering inflicted by the lost.

[shnarkle]

[dianaiad]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

I think you may be begging the question, at least for some of us. That is, if you view humans as a manufactured product, you have a point here. Many people, and many Christians, believe that humans are indeed 'creations,' or manufactured products.

Some of us, however, don't view people as manufactured (created) any more than you or I view our kids as our manufactured creations whose decisions we dictate.

For those of us who view ourselves as God's CHILDREN, not His puppets or toys...or products of some divine assembly line...well, your premise is flawed, and the question being begged is; are we His children, or His 'creations?"

If we are His kids, your question needs to be altered a great deal, I think.

[onewithhim]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

He should NOT be held accountable for the bad choices of human beings. He has deemed us worthy enough to be given the ability to think out our decisions and make our own choices, according to what we think, what we hold dear, what we consider important. Jehovah has love and respect for humans. He has given us all the information we need to make good decisions. If we ignore those instructions it's like throwing away the manual and choosing to put sand in our gas tanks. Should the car manufacturer be held accountable because we willfully went against instructions and put something in the gas tank that would mess up the car?

[DPMartin]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

King David loved the Lord the Lord said of David that he was a man after His own heart. and King David hurt and killed his tens of thousands of others. what's your point?

[shnarkle]

Some of us, however, don't view people as manufactured (created) any more than you or I view our kids as our manufactured creations whose decisions we dictate.

This argument is hung up on terminology. To point out that one's children are created is to point out that they are part of the objective observable world. The point is that one's children do need instruction. While some people would rather abdicate their responsibilities in instructing their children, this is in no way the fault of the children; the parents are liable. You've simply ignored the question by supposing that letting children do whatever they want is acceptable.

For those of us who view ourselves as God's CHILDREN, not His puppets or toys...or products of some divine assembly line...well, your premise is flawed, and the question being begged is; are we His children, or His 'creations?"

There is no flaw to Peds premise. Ignoring the post as well as critiquing it without offering any reasons other than a baseless assertion is hardly even addressing the OP

If we are His kids, your question needs to be altered a great deal, I think.

There's nothing wrong with the analogy presented at all, unless of course one has no problem letting their children do whatever they please. Sadly, this is becoming more prevalent as parents abdicate any responsibility for their children's behavior. Children simply become wards of the state, much like impounded automobiles that were illegally parked, used in the commission of criminal acts, stolen, etc. In all cases, the manufacturer wouldn't be held responsible if they had included the necessary service and owner's manuals.

So what you're essentially saying is that you don't think the analagy is accurate, and yet other than the fact that all analogies break down somewhere, the OP isn't begging the question at all.

[shnarkle]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

King David loved the Lord the Lord said of David that he was a man after His own heart. and King David hurt and killed his tens of thousands of others. what's your point?

The point is that the manufacturer isn't responsible. What's your point?