God vs. Jesus-worshippers

[liamconnor]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

[Elijah John]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

If Jesus is not God, then it seems clear that Jesus-worship would be a violation of the first Commandment.

But there are far worse ways to commit idolatry. Baal worship, comes to mind. Other pagan God or lifeless idols.

At least Jesus was so close to God, the mistake seems somewhat understandable.

It seems as well, that a mind far greeater than our own, and a heart far more fogiving than our own would probably make allowances for upbringing and indoctination in the worship of, as you say, His beloved servant Jesus.

The way I see it is that God judges us according to our best lights, our understanding. If we love God and neighbor as best as we are able, according to our best understanding, it's hard to see how a Benevolent God would judge too harshly, even if that love and devotion is somewhat (but not grossly) misplaced.

[DPMartin]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

nope lets not:

Jesus is the Word of God and all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. therefore to everything that was made, He is God because all creation knows God through His Word. so Jesus is God, to everything but God.

[Wootah]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

No. God hates idol worship.

What I can't understand (well I do understand) is why people who don't call Jesus God still care about Jesus. It is so obviously a man pretending to be God that God would hate it.

[2timothy316]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

nope lets not:

Jesus is the Word of God and all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. therefore to everything that was made, He is God because all creation knows God through His Word. so Jesus is God, to everything but God.

I'm not convinced simply because someone makes something doesn't make them Almighty God. There in John 1:3 it says, "Through him all things were made..." That word 'through' is from the Greek word 'dia' which means, "through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of."
http://biblehub.com/greek/1223.htm

Note the word 'instrumentality' in the definition. This would mean that Jesus was an instrument in creation. That doesn't make him Almighty God, it makes him an instrument of Almighty God. My parents made me, I do not view them as Jehovah God.

[Elijah John]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

No. God hates idol worship.

What I can't understand (well I do understand) is why people who don't call Jesus God still care about Jesus. It is so obviously a man pretending to be God that God would hate it.

Unless, or course, people were (are) worshiping an innocent man who never asked for any of this worship.

Don't you think it's possible to make an idol out of a human being? Even, perhaps, Jesus?

Many of us who care about Jesus see him as a our beloved spiritual leader, teacher or Rabbi. Even as the Messiah or a Prophet. For me, Jesus helps me to understand that the Father is real, merciful and compassionate. I doubt that many of the people who Jesus healed considered him (or realized?) to be "God".

And how is Jesus "pretending to be God". JWs, for one group, don't see any evidence at all that Jesus claimed to be God, or that he pretended to be God. On this, I agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Elijah John]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

nope lets not:

Jesus is the Word of God and all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. therefore to everything that was made, He is God because all creation knows God through His Word. so Jesus is God, to everything but God.

Moderator Comment

If you don't want to accept the parameters of the OP/topic, then simply do not participate in that topic. Do not announce "nope lets not".

The rest of your post here is just preaching, not reasoned debate.

This post would be considered to not comply with the guidelines on preaching. Please read through the guidelines and abide by them.


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[Wootah]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him? Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

No. God hates idol worship.

What I can't understand (well I do understand) is why people who don't call Jesus God still care about Jesus. It is so obviously a man pretending to be God that God would hate it.

Unless, or course, people were (are) worshiping an innocent man who never asked for any of this worship.

Don't you think it's possible to make an idol out of a human being? Even, perhaps, Jesus?

Many of us who care about Jesus see him as a our beloved spiritual leader, teacher or Rabbi. Even as the Messiah or a Prophet. For me, Jesus helps me to understand that the Father is real, merciful and compassionate. I doubt that many of the people who Jesus healed considered him (or realized?) to be "God".

And how is Jesus "pretending to be God". JWs, for one group, don't see any evidence at all that Jesus claimed to be God, or that he pretended to be God. On this, I agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Thats up to you to decide. How much Joel Osteen makes one an idol worshipper of a man called Joel? Similarly how much Jesus makes one an idol worshipper of a 'man' called Jesus? But in my situation I would call what I do idol worship if Jesus is not God.

You learnt the father is real merciful and compassionate by executing Jesus in one of the most brutal manners possible?

JWs aren't correct. They are exactly the people that are focusing on a man too much if all Jesus is is a man.

[Elijah John]

Thats up to you to decide. How much Joel Osteen makes one an idol worshipper of a man called Joel? Similarly how much Jesus makes one an idol worshipper of a 'man' called Jesus?

Neither Joel, nor Jesus asked for worship as "God".

Joel is a Jesus-worshiper, but he speaks in general terms about God enough that I can benefit from his sermons. I think any monotheist would be able to. His standard salvation prayer at the end of his sermons is addressed to Jesus. I don't see that people make an idol out of Joel. They don't pray to him, bow to him, they only listen to his teachings about God and Jesus.

Also, much of Evangelical preaching about life application draws from the "Old" Testament, with little mention of Pauline theology, if any. So that is another area of common ground for me and Evangelicals.

But in my situation I would call what I do idol worship if Jesus is not God.

Since that is your view, shouldn't you make absolutely certain that "Jesus is God"? What makes you so sure that he is?

You learnt the father is real merciful and compassionate by executing Jesus in one of the most brutal manners possible?

God didn't execute Jesus, the Romans did. But no, that is not an accurate representation of my position. Jesus teachings convincingly assume and demonstrate the reality of the Father and His mercy. His parables, the Beattitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, etc.

King David's Psalms have a similar effect on me. The faith of Jesus and King David help make the Father "come alive" for me. Their faith is convincing and contageous.

Regarding the crucifixion, I see it as a martydom, not as an "atonement". The latter is Paul's interpretation of the event. The crucifixion was not the centerpiece of Jesus preaching, which was the love and mercy of the Father.

Jesus allowing himself to be crucified was the logical consequence of his life of service, he died for his cause and his vision. It was an extreme example of being "persecuted for righteousness sake".

JWs aren't correct. They are exactly the people that are focusing on a man too much if all Jesus is is a man.

So you doubt that Jesus was a man? Do you see him as entirely supernatural?

I don't agree with JWs on every issue, but I do agree with them that Jesus is not God.

[JehovahsWitness]

Let us assume Jesus is not God. Would God the father of the N.T., that is, as painted by statements made about him from Matthew to Revelation, find offense in the Evangelical worship of him?

Would Jehovah (YHWH) take offense at the worship of Jesus? Yes, I believe he would since that would be in violation of the first of the ten commanements.


See Exodus 20:3
http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-3.htm

Or would he smile and say, "Well, not quite; but I can see why you would. And, frankly, so much do I love my servant, I am willing to allow this deviation...?

No, idolatry was never a smiling matter in scripture, so I don't see why he would take it lightly or shrug it off. If we are taking the pattern in the Hebrew scriptures, He would more likely smite you dead. Unless he was feeling generous and then he might possibly send a Prophet to kindly remind you of the first commandment. Then if you didn't listen (or stoned the Prophet) he'd probably smite you dead.

He may or may not send an angel of burn down your house or turn it into a public privy.